Omaha/8. Don't like how I played this. Comments?

[jedi]

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.


Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (7 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Button folds, BB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB

After the hand was over, I cringed for folding for one bet on the river. Tell me I'm an idiot.

[Ezcheeze]

I think you should have bet the turn as its likely you are still winning high and have the best draw for low. On the river given that you close the action i would call since a J,T, or someone with QQ or KK might be betting for value thinking their hand is good given all the checking.

H

"It's so easy it's cheezy"

[Buzz]

Jedi - Why did you raise before the flop? I don't want a response - I'm just suggesting that you think about it. Did the raise accomplish your purpose? And if so, was it worth it after all?

Whatever. I think the biggest mistake you made on the hand was to fold to a bet on the river. You probably are beaten - but there is enough of a chance that you have a winner to justify a call.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[MilesDavis]

Bet the turn. You played it agressive from the beginning. No reason to stop on the turn which might have been a very good card for you.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Jedi - Why did you raise before the flop? I don't want a response - I'm just suggesting that you think about it. Did the raise accomplish your purpose? And if so, was it worth it after all?


[/ QUOTE ]

Since I agree about the river fold, I'll just address the pre-flop raise.

I was taking a page from Badger's play of Omaha. I had a good hand, IMO a premium hand, so I raised to get more money into the pot AND to charge the blinds from getting infinite odds to catch up to me. Was it worth it? If I either made any of my draws or didn't wuss out like a Sally on the river, then I think it was.

Of course, I'd like to hear your comments on my thoughts.

[Buzz]

Jedi - I don’t fault your pre-flop raise. In some games it would be the best play - and maybe here it is the best play (or maybe not). I don’t know. I’m just saying that you should think about the effect it had on your opponents.

My opponents are individuals who play differently from each other and who react to me (and others) differently.

Yes, you have a premium starting hand, in fact a 99th percentile hand. You almost surely have the best of it before the flop.

When you have a nice starting hand, one that you’re going to play instead of fold, think about what you want your opponents to do - and how one tactic or another might best accomplish your goal. (The obvious ultimate goals are (1) to have your opponents put as much money as possible in the pot when you have a winning hand, and/or (2) to get your opponents who might out-draw you to fold what would have been winning hands. But you don’t always accomplish either of those goals with a pre-flop raise (although sometimes you do).

Let’s look at what happened when you raised from UTG+1 with your premium starting hand.
•Betting round #1:
MP1 folds,
MP2 folds,
MP3 calls,
CO folds,
Button calls,
SB calls,
BB calls.
(UTG must have already folded to the blinds before you raised).

Did you expect MP 1, MP 2, and CO to fold to your raise? Did you want them to fold? If not, that seems negative from your point of view. At any rate, you did get MP3, Button, SB, and BB to each contribute one extra small bet on this betting round - and that seems positive from your point of view. In other words, your pre-flop raise created some plusses, but maybe also some minuses on the first betting round.

•Betting round #2:
SB check folds
BB check calls,
Hero bets,
MP3 calls,
Button calls,

Note that MP 1, MP 2, and CO are not around to call your bet here - and the other opponents are playing passively. SB probably would have folded regardless of the previous action - (meaning your pre-flop raise definitely got SB to contribute one extra small bet - dead money that wouldn’t otherwise be in the pot). But might there have been more action here without the pre-flop raise? Is it possible that MP 1, MP 2, and/or CO might have called a bet, or even that someone might have raised? (I don’t know the answer, which depends on your opponents). With a slightly different flop (or maybe even this one) might MP 1, MP 2, and CO be chasing here? But of course they already have folded to your pre-flop raise, so any possible profit from them chasing is no longer a consideration.

•Betting round #3:
BB checks,
Hero checks,
MP3 checks,
Button checks.

They’re all playing passively. Do they normally? Without your pre-flop raise, would Button take a chance and bet here? With three opponents, your hand/flop/turn, and the action on the first two betting rounds, you should want to get some money in the pot here, IMHO, even though the board has paired. Your pre-flop raise might have cleared out the opponents holding sixes. If so, your pre-flop raise worked in your favor, but you need to follow up that earlier aggressive play with more aggression here. Your more astute opponents may find it hard to believe you have a six (because of your pre-flop raise) but may still find it difficult to call. The down-side of betting here is an opponent with a six is going to get an extra bet out of you - but the possible potential gain outweighs the risk, IMHO.

I believe there is not just one successful style of play. All very ood players are selectively aggressive, but some more so than others. If you're going to play a certain (very aggressive) style on the first betting round, then I think you may do better, in general, by following up with that style (even though an occasional change of pace also seems worthwhile). In terms of being very aggressive on the first betting round, I think you normally want to follow through with that style. If not, your opponents, even in low limit games, soon catch on to you.

Finally, notice you’re out of position. Position might not have been important to you earlier, but with this particular board on the third and fourth betting rounds, it is. Some people pooh pooh position in Omaha-8, but wouldn’t you rather be last to act here? Then you’d get a bet in for sure (wouldn’t you?). Being out of position should make you tend to think twice about your pre-flop raise. (Yeah, you have a great starting hand, but you’re out of position with it).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[jedi]

Wow. That's a lot to think about. I've been getting so much info on Omaha that it's tough for me to reconcile all of it as I play. Points noted though about position and agression.

[Buzz]

Jedi - Yeah. Too much.

In the beginning, you may read something and understand it, but not incorporate it in your thinking.

As you play more, more of what you read will register. And more of what has registered will be in your consciousness.

Buzz

[iblucky4u2]

The learning process tends to have 4 steps

1-you don't know you don't know something
2-you know you don't know something
3-you learn something but have to think about it
4-you know something and don't even think about it

[chaos]

I found that my play inproves in jumps instead of gradually.

Even with a concept that I think I know and am trying to incorporate into my game. One day I'll have an epiphany and it will become crystal clear and obvious. It's like the cartoons with the light bulb above the guys head. From then on the concept is second nature.

All I can do is recommend that you read about the game, think about what you are doing when you are playing (do not make automatic responses) and think about the game when you are away from the tables.