2 quick questions

[Tosh]

Ok typical low limit game.

1) On the button with 88 after 2 limpers.

2) Free play in big blind with K6o. 6 to the flop of KJ3r. I bet and all call. Turn is a blank.

[jonnyv]

First hand I raise for value to try to hit trips. Most of the time overcards will flop and you have to play it by ear. If all check to me I will bet to try to pick up the pot here. I make a judjment call on forth street but if checked to me will bet again and hope for a free showdown at the river. Hand number two is a clear check on the turn since you are against 6 players. You are probably beat here and are betting someone else's hand. The truth will come out on the turn.

[sthief09]

1. I limp with loose blinds and raise with tight blinds. I don't want to raise if I'm pretty sure 5 of us are seeing the flop. on the other hand, if I can get it down to 3-4 of us seeing it, then I'll raise.
2. I personally would've tried to check-raise the flop, but now I check the turn in case someone's slowplaying or caught something. there's a good chance it'll come back to you for 2 bets and you'll have an easy fold.

[Jeffage]

On the second hand, with that many players, I am trying for a checkraise. Make it so the people who coldcall two with a jack or a 3 are making a big error. If you bet, pairs are getting correct or close to correct odds to call. Hope it gets checked to an LP bettor who bets a jack.

Jeff

[sthief09]

I think raising for value would be if there were 8 people in, because a set is 7.5-1.

[BigEndian]

This is absolutely not a raise for value.

- Jim

[Kluddeludde]

You must consider the implied odds as well. However, you would need a few more limpers here, preferably two more, to raise. If the blinds were tight, though, and the two limpers are weak players, I would definately raise. Albeit, for entirely different reasons.

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

1. Check-fold. With 6 players in, you don't have the best hand. I would've considered checking the flop. If the bet comes from an early position, you can probably safely fold. If it is from a late position, I would check-raise to limit the field. If you get many cold callers, I would consider check-folding the turn.

2. Depends on the situation. With two weak limpers and tight blinds I may raise, taking control of the pot and confident that I can outplay the two of them on latter streets. However, tight blinds is not exactly typical in a low-limit game and in that case I would just call and fold if I don't spike my set.

Kludde

[BigEndian]

First hand: limp 90% of the time. Raise the other 10% as a change up. Raise more if you want to, but you're cutting down on the value of this hand unless the two limpers in front of you play any two. Definitely raise a little more if you think the SB nd BB will come along regardless.

Second hand: I generally bet here until I get resistance. Sometimes I'll check raise if there is a player to my right who bets draws about 100% of the time. If you're popped on the turn, I fold.

Checking the turn is the worst possible play imo. You will have run up the white flag and begged every draw and their mama to throw in a bet and chase you out.

- Jim

[Trix]

1) Limp or raise, depending on the players and the position of the limpers. Without a read I would mostly limp.

2) I check see what happens.

[Tosh]

With 2 limpers tens are an auto raise, and so probably are 9's. Are 8's the cutoff?

[GuyOnTilt]

With 2 limpers tens are an auto raise, and so probably are 9's. Are 8's the cutoff?

Hey Tosh,

This is one of those areas that doesn't depend on the number of limpers (2 or 3), or so much of the value of your pocket pair (99 vs 88 or 88 vs 77). Your decision to limp or raise in these spots should depend solely on, a) the tightness of the blinds preflop, and b) the weak/tight-ness of the limpers postflop.

It's simply not as easy as saying, "With 2 limpers to me on the Button with 99 I raise, but with 88 or 77 I limp." Your preflop actions in LP should have almost as much, if not more, to do with your opponents than with your cards. This is the same reason that I will raise KTs in LP after one or two limpers sometimes, and muck it other times. It doesn't have anything to do with distribution of probability; it has to do with the quality and tendencies of the limpers and blinds.

You hear it often said about poker that you must play the player rather than the cards. Most people who don't play poker or who haven't played for very long take this to mean that you should be bluffing certain players at certain times or calling down to ace-high against certain players. In actuality, this poker mantra is really best applied in situations like the one you presented.

You're ready to move beyond labeling players by their position, Tosh. Start thinking deeper, basing your decisions not just on the present situation, but also on later streets as well. To do this effectively, you must know your opponents and know them well. This is why almost all players that choose to 4-table online at low limits for hourly rate's sake will never move to anything higher than low mid-limit ABC poker. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's not for you, Tosh.

Keep up the good progress.

GoT

[Bob T.]

GOT, nailed it. It isn't about the cards, or about your position, but about the players that are involved, and how they usually react.

I can't say it better than he did, so I will leave it at that.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Tosh]

You've really touched on something here Guy and its something thats been worrying me. Playing multiple tables has killed my game, I've been going backwards for the last month or 2. Playing 4 5/10 tables on autopilot might be easy but its not what I want to be doing and it has meant I have tended to look at decisions in this basic manner because most of the time I don't know my opponents.

I guess the short term answer is 1 tabling with full concentration and to make the effort to play live games more often.

[MarkD]

This hits home with me too. I've been experimenting with two tables lately. I find I can finally get reads on my opponents if I pay attention. Live poker is definitely the way to go as far as really improving one's game IMO.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I agree with your statement on multitabling. That having been said, what I feel comfortable with now is earning 3 BB/100 hands by 4-tabling 2/4. As I build my BR and confidence, I will step up in limits and down in tables. I also played the first month with Hellmuth's foolish guidelines as training wheels. I barely made enough to cover the rake at micro-limits, but I got in a bunch of hands and began to learn. My eventual goal is 10/20 or 15/30, but I've got only 35K hands under my belt and like to take it slowly. My main problem is that I rarely do one thing at a time. I find single tables boring, unless I'm watching TV or working, but that's no better than multitabling.

[arkady]

I would seriously reconsider raising 88 here for "VALUE". If anything you want to thin the field, assuming you could...wow, that seems backwards.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

#1 - I'd raise with two limpers. If the flop is raggy, I bet or raise. Most low limit Party players are scared by raises, but play anything pretty, so if the flop contains a bunch of paint and they bet into me, I'm probably beat and will either release the hand or raise depending on my reads (if any).

#2 With five caller its likely someone has you beat. I'd check and see what happens, with the plan of checkraising or folding, again depending on the other players. If EP bets and you get three or four callers to you, your hand is probably no good. If it checks around to LP, who bets, I'd checkraise. If it checks around completely, I'd curse, because the free card probably made someone else's bad hand better than mine.

[Tosh]

I have played in the 30/60 at Stars a few times when I've observed a number of weak players in it. It certainly is a different game when you're concentrating and not multitabling. I feel thats certainly the best way to improve.

My temporary solution is probably going to involve playing the multiple online games for money and playing bigger games and especially live games for progress.

[bisonbison]

This has been a really interesting thread, and I'm definitely considering the ways in which multi-tabling may hinder my progress as I continue to play. I'm with Tosh on this:

My temporary solution is probably going to involve playing the multiple online games for money and playing bigger games and especially live games for progress.

[Saborion]

Dito.