Another JJ hand... i think im getting better [Archive]

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Oblivious

04-11-2004, 04:57 AM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Oblivious is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, Oblivious raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) folds, Button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, Oblivious caps, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (22.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, Oblivious bets, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button raises, UTG calls, Oblivious calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

So if you were me, what would you think button has at this point? Im wishing 88-TT, but I never get what I wish for. These hands would also make for a very bad preflop 3-bet. Maybe he has AK, but my gut tells me he has an overpair.

Turn: (16.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, Oblivious bets Id rather he raise me with an overpair than take a free card with AK, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls good news, UTG calls.

River: (21.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
UTG checks, Oblivious bets, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 24.25 BB
Main Pot: 24.25 BB, between MP2, Button and Oblivious. > Pot won by Oblivious (24.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
Oblivious shows Js Jc (two pair, jacks and twos).
MP2 shows Jh 7c (two pair, sevens and twos).
Button shows Td Tc (two pair, tens and twos).
Outcome: Oblivious wins 24.25 BB.

Clarkmeister

04-11-2004, 06:33 AM

"Id rather he raise me with an overpair than take a free card with AK,"

You capped preflop after he 3-bet and he is now raising both you and 2 others on a coordinated board. He does not have AK. I know its online and people are very aggressive, but if thats the case and he's really that aggressive, he'll bet his AK on the turn anyways.

The correct play is to checkraise the turn. He may or may not have a bigger pair than JJ, but the pot is big enough that you aren't folding. We also know he has a pair. So we let him bet and checkraise the turn. This will hopefully shut out the two players in between you, or make them pay through the nose to beat you. Yes, you might get 3-bet by an aggressive AA, but that's poker. The pot is so big that you must invest the two bets now to increase your chances of winning the pot. If you were going to just bet the turn, you may as well have just 3-bet the flop in the hopes of driving out the in-between players then.

Tosh

04-11-2004, 08:20 AM

Would you always cap with Jacks in this position ?

Clarkmeister

04-11-2004, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you always cap with Jacks in this position ?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. It really depends on my opponents. I'm far more likely to cap it the worse my opponents are.

Oblivious

04-11-2004, 09:24 PM

Thanks clark... i would have checkraised the turn if i was sure he would have bet, but im not sure i agree with your assumption he would have. I can imagine a player 3betting with AK (especially if theres an opportunity to limit the field) then raising the flop with over cards for a free card play.

If i was sure he would have bet, I would have checkraised, since a free card (especially with the other opponents in) is a disaster.

Also, I think bettting out on the turn does a lot to get out the other two opponents to fold. Theyre as sure as I am of a raise behind them.

Ed Miller

04-11-2004, 09:36 PM

Im wishing 88-TT, but I never get what I wish for. These hands would also make for a very bad preflop 3-bet.

With the button and so many opponents, I might well 3-bet with any of these hands. Doing so certainly isn't "very bad."

Trix

04-11-2004, 10:15 PM

I agree, but anyone holding AA should 3bet his turn check-raise imo.
There is no way that the other guy can put him on something that beats AA with his previous actions.

sfer

04-12-2004, 01:47 AM

I think this is totally right. Hero capped preflop. A solid button with AA has to think he's ahead and should 3-bet.

Clarkmeister

04-12-2004, 02:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, but anyone holding AA should 3bet his turn check-raise imo.
There is no way that the other guy can put him on something that beats AA with his previous actions.

[/ QUOTE ]

From my initial post:

"Yes, you might get 3-bet by an aggressive AA, but that's poker"