General questions on raising for a free showdown

[blackaces13]

I recently read a hand where the hero was on the button and flopped top pair (Ace) with a jack kicker and then turned a nut flush draw. The pot was heads up after the flop and hero was check-raised on the flop and led into on the turn. At this point hero, assuming he was likely behind, raised the turn to "get a free showdown" unimproved, or collect an extra bet if the flush came in.

I think this is a good strategy that I'd like to incorporate into my game but I was wondering how you handle it when this move goes somewhat awry. So here are my questions:

1. What do you do if a brick hits the river and he leads into you again...crying call?

2. Similiarly, what do you do if he 3-bets the turn, a brick hits the river, and he leads into you again...fold?

3. How about a J hitting the river (making you top 2-pair) and he leads...Call, raise?

If anyone could give me the SOP for these situations I'd appreciate it.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey Aces,

I vaguely remember reading that hand post, and I distinctly remember thinking that his turn raise was wrong. "Free" showdown plays are not free; they cost the same amount. The only time you want to make them is when, a) there's a decent chance that you are ahead, but there are many cards that will make a call tough on the river; b) there's virtually no chance of a stop-n-go; AND c) there's a decent chance that your opponent will fold a better hand or a hand that's drawing very live. Reasons NOT to make the not-really-free showdown play: a) I'm probably behind, but have a good draw or redraw; b) My opponent may be on a pure bluff; c) Reason A with the mentality of, I will gain an extra bet when I hit my draw or redraw on the river.

GoT

[blackaces13]

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Reasons NOT to make the not-really-free showdown play: a) I'm probably behind, but have a good draw or redraw;

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GoT,

Since I know you know a lot more about the game than I this statement must be true. However, I don't understand why. It seems to me that you do stand to gain an extra bet on the river if you hit and get a free showdown if you don't. Why is this wrong?

[GuyOnTilt]

It seems to me that you do stand to gain an extra bet on the river if you hit and get a free showdown if you don't. Why is this wrong?

Again, you don't get a free showdown; you get a showdown for 2 BB's, the same price you'd pay if you call the turn and river. When you do hit your draw on the river, you'll be able to raise your opponent, so you really don't gain an extra BB this way either. Your opponent will sometimes check to you on the river when you hit your draw, but that will happen less than half as often as you'll face a 3-bet on the turn that you cannot fold to, and then will make a call on the river unimproved because the pot is so large that you don't want to fold top pair/busted draw.

GoT

[blackaces13]

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When you do hit your draw on the river, you'll be able to raise your opponent, so you really don't gain an extra BB this way either.

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Of course, if you successfully induce a check on the river then you really don't gain that extra bet because you likely could have raised him if you'd called the turn and he led the river. Also, its not worth the risk of getting 3 bet on the turn or led into on the river EVEN AFTER RAISING. Man that's obvious but I totally missed it when I was thinking about it.

Thanks for clearing that up, maybe I'll leave this "expert" play out of my repertoire.

[StellarWind]

As GoT points out the free showdown is not free, it's actually a trade. One extra bet on the turn in exchange for one less bet on the river, whether you improve on the river or not. And sometimes you get screwed when your opponent ignores your play and raises the turn, bets out on the river, or both.

So when would anyone make this even trade that sometimes doesn't work? When they have other reasons for wanting to bet the turn. If there is a 10% chance that a bluff bet on the turn will win a 5 BB pot, that's normally a poor investment. But if I need to call a river bet anyway because my hand might be good and I strongly expect that my opponent will give me a free showdown, then the bet becomes +EV. I have a 10% chance of winning a 5 BB pot and I risk ... nothing if my judgment is correct.

So don't look for free showdown plays. Look for other plays that might provide a free showdown as a consolation prize.