Folding overpairs on the flop, 2 QQ hands, comments? [Archive]

View Full Version : Folding overpairs on the flop, 2 QQ hands, comments?

Shargaas

04-10-2004, 02:35 AM

Here are two hands where my QQ was an overpair to the flop but based on the action, I folded both times. Both tables were somewhat aggressive with around 40-50% of hands being raised pre-flop but the flop action was usually more tame. What do you think of my decisions?

Hand 1:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG caps, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (32 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (8 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG 3-bets, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button caps, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (27.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls $0.20 (All-In), BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (41.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players, 1 all-in)
BB bets, UTG raises, MP2 folds, CO folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 45.50 BB
Main Pot: 37.50 BB, between Button, BB and UTG.
Pot 2: 8 BB, between BB and UTG.

Hand 2:

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (14 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Button caps, Hero folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Button calls $0.10 (All-In), UTG calls.

River: (22 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 23 BB
Main Pot: 20 BB, between Button and UTG+1.
Pot 2: 2 BB, won by UTG+1.
Pot 3: 1 BB, overbet by UTG+1.

Shargaas

04-10-2004, 12:45 PM

Surely there are some opinions on how I played these?

afk

04-10-2004, 01:03 PM

I'll take a stab:

Hand one (as I count) you're getting 51:3 --> 17:1 back to you to call, plus the other bets that will come in behind you to spike a queen. I think you can call this. I'm just saying this 'cause I got ripped for making a fold similar to this once! If you hit that queen you'll probably win the hand barring someone holding 77.

Hand 2: I find more difficult to comment. But I'll say what I might do, dunno if it's wrong or not.
3-bet preflop, you hold an awesome hand and on average it's better than what anybody else has.

Flop: You said the table was somewhat tame post flop, with all this action I don't think it's unreasonable someone has hit two pair or a set with T9, TT and 99 all of which are reasonable hands to assume these players would call a preflop raise with. I doubt that most of the time given this board and the action you have the best hand here and are going to need help.
On the flop I'm counting 31:3 --> ~10:1 back to you to with and overpair and backdoor straight draw. And your queens aren't even that clean. I think this fold is fine.

That's my 0.02, please feel free to rip me apart if my reasoning is all wrong /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Tosh

04-10-2004, 01:11 PM

I don't like your flop bet on hand 1 or failure to 3 bet preflop on hand 2.

Shargaas

04-10-2004, 03:35 PM

I should have 3-bet pre-flop in hand 2, no doubt about it.

Hand 1, are you saying I should have check-folded instead of betting out and folding to the cap? And should I have bet-folded to the cap in Hand 2? Thanks.

Tosh

04-10-2004, 07:17 PM

What I mean is why did you bet the flop ? What was the aim of your bet ?

Shargaas

04-12-2004, 11:40 AM

I bet out in order to put more money in the pot if I have the best hand (I do not want this to be checked around). If I was raised, I would have a decision to make. As it turned out, it was capped back to me, and I felt there was little to no chance my hand was good.

My main concern is whether my folds on the flop in either or both hands were correct based on the action and the table texture.

k000k

04-12-2004, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your flop bet on hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not? Overpair, rainbow flop, I'd bet that.. You think he should check because of 8 players seeing a pair in the flop?

I think he should bet and see who folds and who raises. He got some good knowledge when it came back capped, and I'd be mighty scared to play on.

I don't think the fold is bad.

Tosh

04-12-2004, 02:14 PM

I need someone to explain it better than I can but I really don't think your flop bet achieves anything.

When it comes back to you the pot is so ridiculous that you cannot fold, even if you're just looking to spike a queen and hoping to occassionally have the best hand.

Tosh

04-12-2004, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not? Overpair, rainbow flop, I'd bet that.. You think he should check because of 8 players seeing a pair in the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is hardly as simple as overpair, rainbow flop, bet. The betting has been capped and seen by 8 people. Your bet is inevitably raised by UTG and everyone with anything calls. I check, see what happens, and if the turn is a blank bet and hope UTG can raise out some of the field.