Flush Draw C/R Craziness - Part II

[Haupt_234]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (22 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 23 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 22 BB, won by CO.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by CO.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
CO shows 5s Qs (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: CO wins 23 BB. </font>

I know my turn bet is horrible, so flame away on that part...
Comments, suggestions?

Haupt_234

[jasonHoldEm]

I rarely c/r a flush draw, personally I think it's an expensive case of FPS. I think there are times when it is appropriate (for example, small field, checked to LP player who bets and might be auto-betting...I'd c/r in that spot to make a play for the pot...but I'm essentially bluffing with outs. I want to get it HU against LP and if successful would be the turn regardless of what falls...I want him to fold.)

Anyways, I basically think your timing is poor and you got carried away. The board pairing kills your hand, but you knew that.

Peace,
jHE

[joker122]

What does FPS mean?

[jasonHoldEm]

FPS = Fancy Play Syndrome

[Haupt_234]

Jason-

I understand it is your personal opinion, but c/r a flush draw with a good amount of players is anything but "FPS".

Increasing the value of your flush draw when you have proper odds to draw to it just means more money in the long run. There were so many callers in my hand that were "calling one more bet" each time, and soon enough, they were trapped with bad draws, overs, and bottom pairs.

Haupt_234

[jasonHoldEm]

Ok, I see your point and agree...but is it really something you want to do with a non-nut draw?

[Haupt_234]

I agree. I did get carried away in c/ring the non-nut flush draw, so I posted to get some opinions.

I'm pretty sure WLLH only says to do it with the nut-flush draw, so I made an error in this hand I guess.

Haupt_234

[bisonbison]

I would bet the flop. You don't know where the bet will come from, and if someone in late position opens, you'll force everyone to call two bets.

Since the flop was capped 6 ways, I don't think that betting out when the top card on the board pairs is the brightest idea.

[jasonHoldEm]

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, actually I'm glad I responded because this is something I hadn't really considered in the past...so I learned something here that I'll use in the future.

Thanks,
Jason

[Haupt_234]

Learn from me- never bet into a field of 6 on a flush draw when the turn pairs TP /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Also, I love that PP skin. It's a good change from the bright yellow...


Haupt_234

[trillig]

I suggest folding that garbage PF, it's trouble with a capital T, unless your flop is JJ3, 33J, JJJ, 333 or AdKdQd you can't feel very good about it.

Even though there is the SB discount, I routinely fold that hand.

and yes CAPPING post flop with a vulnerable flush draw ONLY and that MANY callers is a bad idea IMO.

The $ saved is better spent....

-Bri

[chesspain]

Preflop: With five limpers before you, completing here is fine, assuming you're prepared to dump your hand if you don't flop a four-flush or two-pair. Indeed, assuming the BB doesn't raise, you're getting 12:1 odds here. Routinely folding a suited Bdway in the SB after this many limpers in a loose passive game is just leaving money on the table.

Flop: I would probably bet out, although going for the c/r is not a huge mistake either. However, you may have to change the c/r to a check-call depending on the action when it gets back to you. In addition, although you "only" have a draw, it will almost always be good when you hit, so I think that the cap is certainly a value bet.

Turn: As others have said, betting out is a mistake, especially when the top card pairs. You got to build the pot when the bets were cheaper, but there is zero chance that your bet here is going to win the pot. You certaintly don't want someone else to use your bet as a springboard from which to raise, which increases your cost to draw while simultaneously knocking out those players who are feeding your odds to make your flush. Furthermore, Hero needs to consider the possibility that he could be drawing dead if the board pairing just made someone a full-house. Consequently, there is nothing wrong with attempting to see the river as cheaply as possible.

River: Standard

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I like the flop action, but I'd probably come out betting and hope for a raise later so I can 3bet, because you're not sure where a bet is going to come from. Player to your direct left betting out would be perfect, player to your direct right betting out would be bad. Despite what others may think, I still probably cap the flop, non nut-flush draw and all.

Your turn bet was of course bad, but you already knew that. Question 1: Would you have bet out on the turn if the Q didn't pair?

Question 2: Plan of action if you did hit on the turn or the river?

[lil']

With the exception of the turn bet (which is pretty bad, cause you are potentially driving out customers and betting into the guy with trips), you played the hand well.

Pre-flop it's a no-brainer completion with so many limpers.

Value raising the flop with the third nut flush draw shouldn't be that controversial.

[Sarge85]

Everything is good, but the turn bet is wonky imo. Obviously someone has a Q.

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[tolbiny]

Bison,
I dont know that i bet out here- i like the check and see. If the bet does come from late position you can choose just to call, and if it comes from early position you can use the check raise trap just like he did.
agree on the turn

[Haupt_234]

I def. agree that folding J4s after many limpers for 1/2 a bet is way too passive in a LL game.

Question 1: I wouldn't have bet out the turn if a Q didn't hit, and I shouldn't have bet out if a Q DID hit /images/graemlins/crazy.gif. All in all, the only reason I would bet out the turn is if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif came, hence my mistake which I pointed out.

Question 2: My plan of action was to bet right out (no c/ring here at such a large pot) on either the turn or river if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ended up hitting.

Haupt_234

[Nottom]

When you have 4 bystanders happily hanging around you should have more than enough of an overlay to make up for the few times someone is in with a bigger flush draw. If you were pumping a 3-way pot maybe you should back off with out the nut draw since its a pretty thin value play anyway, but I see nothing wrong with helping to get in tons of bets on the flop in this case.

[James Boston]

I don't like your play here. I don't like to semi-bluff in early position, and I would never 4-bet on a semi-bluff. You didn't force anyone to cold call 2 bets, so your raise becomes a value bet. Also, by being first to act on the turn, you don't get a free card for your raise and someone could have just made trips. Betting out on the turn is the wrong play. You had pretty good pot odds, so checking and calling one bet would have been the best play.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to semi-bluff in early position, and I would never 4-bet on a semi-bluff. You didn't force anyone to cold call 2 bets, so your raise becomes a value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a value bet all the way, there is no semibluff about it. If everyone random decided to fold 1 time in a million, good for them but it wasn't the intention of the bet.

[James Boston]

I agree with you on the flop bet. I didn't clarify my thoughts well. Still, I think the 4 bet was too aggressive. The turn should have been check-called. I don't feel like opening the betting on a 4-1 dog is a value bet.

[Haupt_234]

It's simple math. If everyone calls one bet and I have good odds to hit my draw, then having everyone call 4 bets would give me better value to hit my draw. There's nothing dumb about a 4-bet here, only the turn bet.

Haupt_234

[slavic]

If there was no cap on betting and 6 players were going to call, I'd go to the felt here.