Protecting TT in the BB....HOW?

[Schaefer]

With TT in the BB, I raise the field every time. I KNOW that it's the best hand and I make those limpers PAY. However, I have an extremely difficult time after the flop. I flop an overpair half the time and I really struggle protecting my hand. Should I bet out on the flop and turn or do I need to include check-raising in my arsenal at some point. Seems like every time I bet out on the flop, NO ONE folds. Then on the turn, maybe 1 player drops because their J3o didn't hit this time. Then the river brings an overcard and I bet, get called in 3 spots and the two people with that overcard split the pot because their deuces don't play. HOW do you guys protect vulnerable hands in EP?

Schaefer

[Saborion]

Unless you know there's an aggressive player in LP, I don't think you have much of an option. Bet, hope to be raised by a LP player, then 3-bet. That's what I do. Is there any other way to play it?

[jasonHoldEm]

Whenever a preflop raiser raises from the blinds and then checks the flop it looks very suspicious...I'd say you're more likely to have it checked through unless there is a maniac somewhere.

[Mikey]

I think you are being results oriented with this hand.

If the whole field limps in and I'm in the BB I'm raising with TT just the same way you do.

That is the right play, but now here comes the flop. The flop is x y z.

Playing your hand preflop and on the flop are 2 totally different things.

You also say that you have the best hand and you are making those limpers pay. You may be right, but remember that someone holding QJ or any two over cards to your pair are an 11-10 underdog, AND all those limpers collectively have a better chance of beating you that you have of beating them.

[Vern]

I always raise TT or better in the BB, but for different reasons. If there are 3 or less opponents, my TT may be good unimproved. I would prefer one or two opponents but look at three this way. With 4 or more, I look at it as drawing hand, the more the better my payout. In the latter case the TT has to improve or the board has to be just plain crazy for me to get involved in anything. TT is about even on 3-4 opponents if spread among all your opponents is one A, K, Q, J so the rest are live in the deck. Add in more of those as 'dead' cards that more than one player holds and your TT moves ahead. It also may teach some of the tighter players to not come limping into your blinds just because others are in the pot.

[Vern]

Not fully true, if a lot of those limpers are making dead cards for the others, for example two players limping in holding QJ, then the tens move ahead fast against them, only when there are exactly one of each (A-J) out in the pockets and the rest are live is TT an underdog to the field and only by 1-2% less than its fair share. If 4 opponents have two Aces, Kings, Queens and Jacks combined in their hands without pairing them, TT wins 40% of the time, double it's fair share. Like I said in my other post, TT against a small field can win unimproved even against an overcard on the board. After 3 or 4 opponents you need to hit a ten to continue against overcards if you get any resistance.

[Saborion]

Very nice post.

[Dylan Wade]

I like to checkraise with a premium pocket pair in EP, at a full table of loose/passive players, when an overcard hits. The reason for this is mainly because I don't want to bet out, be called by everyone, and then have to play the turn and river the same way -- only to be shown a bigger pair. Check/folding isn't a terrible option, but I think it's sub optimal when only facing one overcard.

When check raising, it will either get checked through, re-rasied, or simply called. If the flop is checked through, that helps you play (bet) the turn. If the flop is re-raised, you can be fairly certain this passive player holds a better pair. If you are simply called, you can't be certain that your hand is good; however, i'm more confident that my hand is good now than I would be if I merely bet and was called. Also, since your average passive player really respects a check/raise, you might get the turn checked through if you check it again. I'm more concerned about seeing all five cards.... having a good % of my money in Pre-flop, and little in post flop. Ideally with a hand like TT multiway, you want a lot of money in pre-flop, and little post-flop (when you're facing an overcard). Plainly... you'd have to be pretty confident to *value bet* the turn into a bunch of passive players with an overcard against you.

[trillig]

IMHO:

TT is pretty much a fit or forget it hand in low limit hold'em most of the time.

All the pairs under JJ are too easily beat and unless you trip up or the board is smalls you are likely beat. I really feel same way for JJ/QQ if 3+ people see the flop, and there are overcards on the flop and they call all the after the flop bets, so I am not surprised at all that you are unable to 'shake them off'.

In low limit against typical opponents, there is no way to protect....

Other than folding, after the flop gives you quality reasons to do so....
Then you just wait for a better opportunity... it will come, patience!

-Bri

PS. TT is not always the best hand if I was sitting there, read my recent post, that TT cost my opponent about $40.

[Mikey]

I just don't understand, how any pocket pair can ever have a 50% chance or greater to win preflop vs. 9 other hands, which are completely random. Even ACES.

Can you please explain how this is so??

[Vern]

From two-dimes:

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=267718
pokenum -h tc ts - ac 6c - ks 7s - qd 8d - jh 9h
Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
<font color="red">Ts Tc 156223 18.36 694325 81.62 120 0.01 0.184</font>
Ac 6c 188890 22.20 661658 77.78 120 0.01 0.222
Ks 7s 170404 20.03 680144 79.95 120 0.01 0.200
Qd 8d 170008 19.99 680540 80.00 120 0.01 0.200
Jh 9h 165023 19.40 685525 80.59 120 0.01 0.194

You can see that if you are against 4 opponents who each hold one overcard so there are 12 live overcards left in the deck, you are only a 1.64% dog to win your share. (1/5th or 20%) If even one of these hands is not suited then the TT moves to about a .5% favorite for its share:

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=267716
pokenum -h tc ts - ac 6c - ks 7s - qd 8h - jh 9h
Holdem Hi: 850668 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
<font color="red">Ts Tc 174473 20.51 676051 79.47 144 0.02 0.205 </font>
Ac 6c 207839 24.43 642685 75.55 144 0.02 0.244
Ks 7s 186133 21.88 664391 78.10 144 0.02 0.219
Qd 8h 121951 14.34 728573 85.65 144 0.02 0.143
Jh 9h 160128 18.82 690396 81.16 144 0.02 0.188

If you increase the field to 5 opponents with another suited pair of hole cards you actually increase TT's win% outright, let alone against its faire shair (1/6th or 16.7%)

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=267731
pokenum -h tc ts - ac 6c - ks 7s - qd 8d - jh 9h - ah 5h
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
<font color="red">Ts Tc 115866 17.61 542062 82.38 80 0.01 0.176 </font>
Ac 6c 97111 14.76 546580 83.07 14317 2.18 0.158
Ks 7s 138497 21.05 519431 78.94 80 0.01 0.210
Qd 8d 139423 21.19 518505 78.80 80 0.01 0.212
Jh 9h 74056 11.25 583872 88.73 80 0.01 0.113
Ah 5h 78738 11.97 564953 85.86 14317 2.18 0.130

Every overcard that gets added to the hole cards after the first four increases TT's chances because it takes a probability hit (the overcard) out of the deck. Assuming you are in the BB and hold TT to a field of 9 limpers (please e-mail me the table name so I can join the waiting list) The worst case scenerio is that there is an overpair to yours, after that, so many overcards are likely hidden in their hands that they negate each other. Taken to an extreme for an example, TT vs four opponents all with AKs will win almost 2/3rds of the time since they can only draw to their flushes. If they all had AKo, TT jumps up to a 93% win rate. The point is that TT against a large field is still a good hand pre-flop. Playing well on the flop and beyond is still required. But only when an overpair exists and has limped or exactly one of each A-J are out so the other 12 overcards are live is TT an underdog to the field as a whole and only by a little.

What I am suggesting is that raising TT from the BB into a field of limpers is not a bad idea since you are very likely to be ahead of a small field or at least getting odds against a large field. TT vs 2 players is a strong hand unimproved. TT vs 9 opponents would need a low board or a T on the board to reasonably continue. This is the same principal with KK in the BB, you can always be raising into a limping AA, but you raise because against the likely opponent holdings you are ahead.

[jonnyv]

You cannot protect this hand in a small stakes game. With 4-8 callers every time even with a raise you are really trying to flop trips. This hand will not hold up most of the time because of all the calling stations, so your raise proflop is really only getting extra money in the pot if you hit your trips. If an over card flops you will be behind most of the time. THis hand really is not very strong in a loose passive game.