Poker vs. Summer Job -- Topic for the Youngins...

[Schneids]

Alright, let's cut to the chase: I'm in college, I have no plans of doing a work study or internship this coming Summer (but will be next Summer).

I have logged more than enough hours to produce a confidence interval giving me strong, strong confidence I'm at least a 1BB/table hour player.

I could very, very easily earn more money per hour playing poker over the summer, than getting a summer job. Yet, I understand the ramifications of having some blank spaces on your application. I do not want to apply for a job three years from now, and have them questioning why I didn't work the Summer of 2004, and I know that saying I "played poker professionally" is a turn-off to many potential employers.

Yet, the thought of devoting 20-40 hours a week of my life to something, just "to avoid having an empty space" feels sickening at the same time -- and like a gigantic waste of my time.

I have thought about many possibilities to work around this, such as having no official job, and using as an excuse to employers that I wanted to take the Summer off to have more time to work on writing a book (could be made true). Or, I am officially a co-owner of a Web Development company that is registered with the state, so, I could potentially say I was self-employed in '04 and did web-development work. I like the thought of this idea, except, I know that many employers do extensive background checks, and with the right resources they would see that taxes I file for 2004 wouldn't line up with the lack of web jobs we do (since we're a small-time company and only do work if the price is right and turn down many jobs). Or, I could enroll in one class over the summer, and then use education as the excuse. That might work, but that also feels like a weak idea.

So then, I ask the other successful younger players, what are you planning on doing with your Summer? Do I just bite the bullet and find a real job where I can work as few hours as possible for them?

[MarkD]

Although I'm now through college and working I highly doubt many employers would frown upon someone who took the summer off to relax.

Personally if I was you I would take the summer off and play cards and if ever questioned about it I would just say that I wanted some time off. I don't think many employers will care.

[jdl22]

I agree.

Nobody cares about a 1 summer gap. It's very common for college students to do nothing in the summer, every summer until they graduate.

The gap most talk about is taking a year or two off after you graduate to play. This looks pretty bad, but one summer won't have much if any effect.


edit: I'm currently in grad school. In June I have comprehensive exams. If I pass those the first time (I currently give myself even odds) then I will do the same thing you are talking about as well as spending a little time starting some research projects.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree.

Nobody cares about a 1 summer gap. It's very common for college students to do nothing in the summer, every summer until they graduate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know many people who disagree, given the present highly competitive job market.

[afk]

My gut instinct is to say get a job. The money for poker is one thing, but I personally wouldn't want to be in front of my computer or in the casino all summer. I'm doing construction this summer, and while it's hard work, I wouldn't trade the decent money, working outside and social aspects a job for playing poker.

But then again I consider poker more of a side project, more for fun than money.

Edit: Though I also should note I'm a relatively new player, only playing .05/.10, so I couldn't really make more playing poker than working. But even if I could I think I'd still prefer to work.

[ctv1116]

Yeah, I'm doing a summer internship, but I'm pretty sure I'll be making more playing Party and Paradise micro-limits than my internship stipend. At least that's my poker goal of the summer.

[juanez]

I've been out of college for 11 years and have hired and fired several people in my former mid-management positions (currently a real estate agent). Not to encourage you to play poker all summer, but personally I have never held it against anyone for taking a summer off in college. In fact I've usually been envious since I needed to work every summer and all semester to pay my own tuition.

If asked what you did on your summer off, a good answer is "travel". But expect folks to ask you where you went...

Have a great summer either way! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gonores]

I say f*ck the real world. Don't worry about the job market two or three years down the road. Besides you're obviously not going to play/study 50+ hours a week, and you have plenty of time to do some other productive thing(s) in your spare time. Volunteer, take classes, be a mentor...just don't get lazy.

On top of that, it looks like you have an entreprenurial spirit. I'm graduating in May, and my plan is spend the next two years in a major capital grab playing poker while taking a few courses at UW, after which I plan on hopefully opening my own fitness center or pursuing some other business plan. The pure short-term profitability of poker right now can open up a lot of doors for you a lot quicker than your peers.

One last point. Since I pretty much have a short-term plan in mind but I would like back-up options, I have been interviewing here and there, and I haven't shyed away from my poker hobby. Although there have been some furrowed brows, I'd say more often than not, my interviewers have not been turned off when I mention it.

You seem to approach things the right way. Take advantage of your perspective.

Doug

[Warik]

When interviewing applicants, I've never cared about their "summer job" type employment. I've always looked for how long they've worked full-time and what they did while they were there.

Maybe you were going to summer school... maybe you were studying something... maybe you were relaxing at home with the family - whatever.

If you can make more money playing poker than working part-time during the summer WHILE YOU ARE A STUDENT, go for it. You have the next 40-50 years of your life to spend 40-50 hours a week somewhere other than where you'd like to be.

[scrub]

On the other hand, no matter what you may think right now, were you to geta summer job, the odds are that it would be much less depressign and bleak than three months spent playing online poker.

That is if you're the kind of person who would make friends with your co-workers and find a way to enjoy yourself.

scrub

[MrBlue]

I'm going to put in my 2 cents here being a recent grad. If you're looking to get into highly competitive companies after graduation say like Goldman Sachs, MS, IBM, Oracle, and etc, they will want to know what you did. I graduated from CMU and everyone's resume looks very similar. Everyone took Operating Systems, Compilers, Algorithms, Computer Graphics, but you took a year off while another guy was working at a hedge fund learning about financial instruments? GS will pick the guy that has some background in finance rather than someone who didn't unless you are extraordinarly exceptional.

It may be that extra summer that puts you over the top against another similarly qualified candidate. If you are a freshman, then I'd say take the summer off. No one will care much what you did freshman summer except the internship in sophmore year. They'll ask you what you did last summer and it could help you land a better internship next summer.

With all that being said, everyone has different priorities and responsibilities both financially and personally. I took my freshman summer off and goofed around and yeah it was damn fun. I don't regret it a bit.

[MicroBob]

not sure if this really helps you or not.....but you can always just LIE somehow on the resume with some summer-job as a bartender or waiter, or in a small bookstore, or in a small motel as a desk clerk or mowing lawns or in a garage as a mechanic....something where it could be entirely conceiveable that you were paid under the table with no tax or paper trail.

i know this sounds a bit sketchy....but i think the chances of someone finding out it is a lie are pretty long.

[Your Mom]

I'll mark this down as worst post of the year. Find a job you can work 15-20 hours a week.

[wrongpond]

I think that your dillema is more a problem of presentation then action. You know what you want to do, play cards. You know that you do not want this circled in red ink at the top of your resume before your butt hits the interview chair, so the question you are asking is "If I play cards this summer instead of taking a 'summer' job will it effect my employment prospects later?" I say this is where presentation should govern, if you think that when questioned on your whereabouts this summer you can't give an answer that would be acceptable then I strongly suggest that you start filling out apps. now. If however you think that you could easily come up with something that would be exceptable and be convincing about it then go ahead and play.
I personally would play cards, and make it a point to filter in some of other people's suggestions for excuses (e.g. "I did some volunteer work and helped my parents landscape their yard, since this was the last summer I have fee to help them [use simple but tideous tasks here, like "We dug up the whole back yard and planted grass seed," "We painted the exterior of the house" things that any Joe could do but would take everyone weeks] "I did volunteer work" {actually do some of this so you can confidently say "Oh well, some with "Meals On Wheels", some with the "Salvation Army," plus it could be good for you} then maybe if you get grilled about the one or two weeks that they think you should've still had free, add "I also went on a short trip to ---fill in blank with someplace you can tell them more about then where it is on the map--- for a week to recharge so I'd be ready to focus totally on school the next year.") the last part also gives the impression that you worked HARD all summer. All this is overkill for your current situation, (you won't have to answer these questions for three years) but, you can see how it's all presentation, because in fact you might do all of these things and still play cards for your summer income, you would just not do enough of any of them to fill more then your Saturday afternoons, and yet, when you say them right it sounds like a very full summer. If you agree with me or not is up to you, but as a poker player you understand that both, having the nutflush, and getting the other guy beleive that you've got it and fold, even though you don't, will make you money, but one is all PRESENTATION. I hope at least some of this helps,

Jeremiah

[ScottyP431]

I did basically the same thing you did after my freshman year... in fact i was living in eagan at the time.

I got home from college in early may, lined up a serious of job applications/interviews for the 2nd and 3rd weeks of may. First week home i made some withdrawls at the canterbury to the tune of around 2200 dollars. This was the summer Still fly came out and all i could think about was gucci watches and burberry jump suits.... but that is neither here nor there

Point being, some bad sessions combined with excess spending and loaning money to high school friends= broke ass sucka by the end of may.

So i decided to give it up and get a job. But at that point every decent job had was taken and it was either wearing a headset at the gap for minimum wage or temping... or also suicide.

Long story short: get a job, play poker at night for a while, you can always quit your job later.

Also if you work for 3 weeks or so you could still slap that sh!t on a resume... again whats ethical? where is the line? whos to say

[daryn]

i'm about to graduate in may after a long stay in college. i can't wait to get out. anyways, i plan on playing poker all summer as well, and probably even beyond that, or i'll get a job. people are all different, some like to lay out their clothes for the next day at night, and some like to just shake up their dresser and see what falls out and put it on!

while all those kids were interning and blah blah blah every summmer i was out enjoying my life, travelling to vegas, to europe, playing cards, all while making enough money to pay for college and buy myself some pretty nice stuff!

now you could say, yeah but those kids will have high profile jobs at blah blah blah.. but that's just not my bag baby. do what you like, but that's not what i'm after in life.

[Nate tha' Great]

Schneids,

I have no doubt that you could make more money playing poker than working a regular job. But it really depends on what kind of field that you're planning on eventually going in to. If it's something like i-banking, finance, management consulting etc. then not working could be harmful, not so much because it looks bad to "take the summer off" but because you lose an opportunity to network, or to impress someone who could remember you down the road. (And strictly from an EV perspective, the sorts of salaries that you can make in those fields are high enough that it could cost you money in the long run to skip the summer).

But in 90 percent of all cases, taking the summer after your freshman year off will be juuust fiiine. Outside of those select few fields, people recognize that there's value in being something other than an overachieving dork.

Another option would be to see if you could get a gig working at a summer camp of some kind, something that would keep you busy for three or four weeks but would leave the rest of your summer free. Those sorts of positions can still provide for a talking point in a job interview, and they're often a lot of fun.

The thing to remember about a resume is that it's really just a device to help you tell a story, and not some sort of Permanent Record of all your achievements as a human being. If you're afraid that you won't have a very interesting story to tell (and stuff like extracurriculars or creative projects can be just as helpful in that regard as a job), then you should be more inclined to do something this summer that will help you to embelish it.

(Full disclosure: I used to be in the consulting world before quitting to work for my small business and play cards).

[MicroBob]

i don't know why you would need to put anything down for the summer of your freshman year.
i was working at that time....but by the time i was 22 and out of college it was irrelevant to my resume.

if you want, there are a whole bunch of jobs that wouldn't leave any kind of paper-trail.....working at a small bookstore or motel where you got paid under the table or on a grounds-crew doing landscaping type work. or as an assistant to a fix-it guy or plumber or guy that puts down the tiles or installs washing machines....whatever.
yes, i'm advocating lying in this spot because i really don't think it makes a bit of difference.

if it's at the bottom of the resume you can mention that you worked in a lab and cured lupus and the odds are a bit better than 50/50 that a prospective employer would actually notice.



if you wanted to be slightly more accurate but somewhat obtuse and smart-assish you could give some details about the math project you were working on....

(these won't be too good but someone here can certainly improve on them)...

something about 'independent real-life game-theory project including analysis and application of differing elimination tournament formats'
or
'applied mathematical skill and knowledge toward the study and application of profitable internet game-theory venture'

something like that anyway.

[karlson]

All I can tell you is that the more ambitious your future job prospects are, the less likely it is that you should play poker this summer. This is especially true if you are planning to go into anything academic. If you are basically ignoring what you majored in in college for the purposes of your job search, you are fine playing cards for a while. If you are looking to go further in your specialty, then use the time to advance that and get a relevant internship.

[James282]

Dude, at your age, do whatever makes you happy. If you are returning to college next year, spend this summer playing poker and hanging out with your friends. Worry about your resume when you need to...I am sure you can make more money playing poker than some coffee getting internship.
-James

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
something about 'independent real-life game-theory project including analysis and application of differing elimination tournament formats'
or
'applied mathematical skill and knowledge toward the study and application of profitable internet game-theory venture'

something like that anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is hilarious.

[MicroBob]

thanks.
surprised nobody has tried to improve on this yet.
i just noticed that i used 'applied' and 'application' in the same sentence in the 2nd one.
oh well, it was late at night.

[lostinthought]

Spend 3-4 weeks traveling with your poker winnings, and tell employers that you were checking out some of the world your freshman summer. People who have travelled seem to have a much more well-rounded perspective.

I don't think not 'working' your freshman summer is going to be that big of a deal in the long run.

However, be sure to do things for yourself besides poker - e.g. exercising, travelling, reading. I think it would be easy to become a poker junkie, gain a lot of weight, and start the next school year with a lack of motivation..

good luck

[Schneids]

I'd like to thank everyone for their responses, it's helped in many ways.

I am actually a sophomore in college this year, though judging by many of your responses, whether I was a froshie or soph it overall doesn't matter much. FWIW, at the University of MN, it is not that uncommon for journalism students to begin their first work study gigs during their junior year. So, any job I would do this Summer would be data entry or retail or any other take-your-pick drudgery job.

[MatrixMunki]

don't get cought up in the rat race, if you truly can do that well in poker and it is enjoyable go for it, that's what I plan on doing this summer, I'm also a college freshman, just have to convince my mom that it's cool, just try to do something physical also, like going for jog at night, should help your mental game and make you feel good,

[stoxtrader]

[ QUOTE ]
So, any job I would do this Summer would be data entry or retail or any other take-your-pick drudgery job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say before I read the above - take a job if it's something you are excited about, or fits well with your poker schedule, or gives you the opportunity to network. The last being the most important.

Finding a job, or more importantly, a career you are passionate about is a two step process in my opinion.

STEP 1 - figure out what you want to do
STEP 2 - do whatever it takes to make that a reality

if you don't have step 1 - then take a summer job if you think it helps with that. If you have step one, then only take a job if it helps with step 2, the 2 most important points about step 2 would be acquiring the correct skillset/knowledge for your chosen field and meeting/networking with the correct people, with the BIG emphasis on the networking part.

I work in finance, and while it may differ by industry, I think that 95% or more of the desirable jobs in my industry are filled/acquired through referrals.

I actually really like this topic, so if any of this hits home or you disagree, let me know, I'd love to discuss...

[3rdEye]

I don't see why it should be a big deal if you take the summer off. College students do it all the time. Unless you get a "real job," your resume isn't going to be negatively impacted. No one cares whether you delivered pizza for a summer.

As an aside, I've actually thought about using the fact that I play poker somewhat decently (well...maybe even crappily) as a selling piece. I'm a grad student in economics, and the whole risk-reward/mathematical side of the game should appeal to a lot of employers in the fields I might be working in after I get my masters degree. Because of that, I wouldn't assume that employers are necessarily turned off by people who play poker for a living.

[turnipmonster]

lots of good responses. my general feeling is that you should do what you want to do, and not worry so much about gaps in your resume or whatever. my formal training is in computer science, but I have taken numerous long breaks (both in college and after) to work as a touring musician in a rock band. people said that it would look bad, I wouldn't be able to get a job/promotion, but none of that has been the slightest bit true.

my jobs have always been cool about me touring, and if they weren't then I probably wouldn't want to work there anyways. Maybe you'll find a company run by a poker player, who thinks it's great you spent the summer playing cards! Point being, you never know, so don't let what people think stop you from doing things you think will make your life richer (like having more time and not working some cashier job).

make sure to do some other fun stuff, like traveling, with your time off.

--turnipmonster