Quick Question on ATs UTG

[Ralph Wiggum]

Is ATsooted playable UTG or UTG+1. I am trying to tighten up my PF hands, but I keep hearing the in EP, I have to play very tight. Just wondering when the line is drawn w/ AXs hands from EP. Thanks in advance /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SinCityGuy]

Ralph, in a loose/passive game, this is an OK limping hand. It has the most value in making the nut flush. It's ace value isn't very powerful (outside of the flush), and you're going to be dominated by AK, AQ, and AJ.

In a supertight game, where a raise frequently buys the blinds, I will sometimes raise UTG with this hand (or fold, but I won't limp). It can backfire if you get called by a couple of people or reraised. You're then playing a somewhat shaky holding out of position.

[Dynasty]

I raise with ATs in all games.

[ZeeJustin]

At almost every low limit table, you should be limping ATs from EP.

[Tosh]

In a nice gentle Party game I'll play any suited ace in EP.

[unome]

The only preflop question here is weather to limp or raise UTG. I'll raise 90% of the time assuming that it's not a super aggressive table.

[rtrombone]

I agree that AT isn't a very good hand in EP, suited or not. But if you're raising only with AQ and AK you're giving away too much information, IMHO. I raise with AJs and ATs (and toss their offsuit counterparts) so that my opponents can't rule out a jack- or ten-high flop from hitting me. Sure, you hate to get 3-bet by a tight player when raising with these hands, but the same goes for AQ and I still raise with that.

Observant opponents will muck AQ and AJ in the face of your raise, which you very much want, while fish will continue to cold-call with stuff like QJ, KT and T9.

In a consistently loose-passive game you can limp with ATs and a lot of other hands. But those games are rare, at least at mid-limit.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that AT isn't a very good hand in EP, suited or not. But if you're raising only with AQ and AK you're giving away too much information, IMHO. I raise with AJs and ATs (and toss their offsuit counterparts) so that my opponents can't rule out a jack- or ten-high flop from hitting me. Sure, you hate to get 3-bet by a tight player when raising with these hands, but the same goes for AQ and I still raise with that.

Observant opponents will muck AQ and AJ in the face of your raise, which you very much want, while fish will continue to cold-call with stuff like QJ, KT and T9.

In a consistently loose-passive game you can limp with ATs and a lot of other hands. But those games are rare, at least at mid-limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like good advice, and I'll keep it in mind if I ever run into any observant opponents. Except for a couple of 2+2 posters, I haven't seen too many in the live and online mid-limit games that I play.

[rtrombone]

Even if your opponents will never fold AQ or AJ, raising with ATs is +EV if they will cold-call with hands like KT, T9s and garbage like A8 and Q8s. This will almost always be the case. Having observant opponents muck AQ and AJ is merely a bonus and not necessary for raising to be correct. I should have made myself clearer in my first post, sorry.

[daryn]

i'm just trying to get clear here: you raise ATs utg in any game?

[jonnyv]

I limp with this in a loose passive game and fold this in a tight agressive game. This is a trouble hand in a tight agressive game and if you get any action you are in trouble unless you get your flush draw.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm just trying to get clear here: you raise ATs utg in any game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it has to be hold 'em.

What kind of game isn't it worth a raise?

[GuyOnTilt]

What kind of game isn't it worth a raise?

A lot of the 15/30 and most of the 20/40 games I play in.

GoT

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of game isn't it worth a raise?

A lot of the 15/30 and most of the 20/40 games I play in.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. In a loose/aggressive game, you'll likely be playing this for 3 or 4 bets out of position.

[bunky9590]

Seems to me your asking for trouble raising that in a ny game. In a tough game you're only likely to get called by hands that dominate you and PP above 7's. It's also likely you can get three bet by the hands that dominate you and you'll be out of position as well.

As far as making it up post flop, they better be really weak tight to put a play on them.

i like it to mix up my play once in a while but not every time.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of game isn't it worth a raise?

A lot of the 15/30 and most of the 20/40 games I play in.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

In California. I would definiely raise with ATs in any Commerce game. I always raise in the Bellagio and Mirage games.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
In a tough game you're only likely to get called by hands that dominate you and PP above 7's. It's also likely you can get three bet by the hands that dominate you and you'll be out of position as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

If by tough, you mean a game where opponents are generally playing tight, then that's probably the best game to raise ATs UTG with. You'll take down the blinds so often, you don't have to worry about the rare occassions somebody has a better hand and 3-bets you.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise with ATs in all games.

[/ QUOTE ]
i limp with ATs most of the time UTG or +1, and raise the other times and positions.

kenny

[HiatusOver]

I believe that GOT is correct. In the 20-40 Commerce games and 15-30 Party games, it seems to me that A-10s is more profitable limping UTG. But I am sure it is close. In tighter tougher games, I think a fold is too tight, so a raise is probably correct the majority of the time.

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In a tough game you're only likely to get called by hands that dominate you and PP above 7's. It's also likely you can get three bet by the hands that dominate you and you'll be out of position as well.

[/ QUOTE ]If by tough, you mean a game where opponents are generally playing tight, then that's probably the best game to raise ATs UTG with. You'll take down the blinds so often, you don't have to worry about the rare occassions somebody has a better hand and 3-bets you.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, would you say the same thing about ATo as well? Doesn't seem like the suitedness makes all that much difference if most of the time you're either going to be heads-up against out of position against 3-bettable hand or you're going to win the blinds.

Anyway, aren't you really just advocating steal-raising here? You're in pretty bad shape if any hand 3-bets or calls in this type of game. Would you make this raise with A9s? What about 32o?

[Dynasty]

I might make the raise with ATo or KJo in a tight game. I defintiely make it with A9s and A8s.