Two river decisions @ 4-8

[bdk3clash]

Two interesting river decisions from a brief 4-8 session at a club in NYC.

Hand the First

I have KK in the BB and raise 3 limpers. All call. (Shocking.)

Flop is A-J-4, rainbow. I bet, 2 of the limpers call, including a loose, passive, and straightforward (from what I can tell) new (as in new to hold'em) player.

The turn is an A, putting a flush draw on board. I bet, first limper folds, second limper (the new player) calls. I had planned on folding if he raised.

The river is a J, making the board A-J-4-A-J.

What's your river move? Why?

Hand the Second

I open-raise with QQ UTG+1. 3 players cold-call, and the big blind calls. (The first cold-caller is the "steaming Asian girl" from my recent post "Monster Session report (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=611589& fpart=&PHPSESSID=).") This player is, as they say, out to get me.

The flop is 8-9-10, two-tone. Lovely. I bet, Steaming Asian Girl calls, other limper raises, I re-raise, SAG calls, other limper calls all-in.

The turn is some rag. I bet, SAG calls. (Third player is all-in.)

The river is a Q. The good news is I just hit a set, but the bad news is it put a one-card straight on the board.

What's your move on the river? Why?

Results and my thoughts later.

[Munga30]

Hand 1: Passive players call more hands than they will bet and raise only when way ahead. I'd bet.

Hand 2: The side pot is tiny and she is out to get you, so I would check to induce a bluff.

[asymmetrical]

I hate river scare cards.

Hand 1:
I think any new player as you described is raising the turn with ANY ace, and I don't think he hangs around an AJ4A board with a 4, or even J4 after you bet. I'm putting him on J10, QJ, something of the sort, so when the second jack hits the board, I have to think I'm beat. Will a bet make him fold that Jack? No way. I'd check and hope for a free showdown..and that he was playing for a Flush. He bets, I'd probably muck. I don't think you win here 1 in 7 or 8 (?what's the rake at this club?) times when he bets.


Hand Two
So...other limper's action on the flop: does that give him the made straight, two-pair, set, open-ended with a pair? What kind of player is he? What's he going to bet on? And now that he's all-in, more importantly, what will your friendly SAG call all that action with?

With the money in the pot I'm seeing this showdown regardless, so the question is whether to bet and risk being raised, or check and risk missing out on the big bet. I think I get all weak and resort to check-calling here, as well. It's just my natural reaction on scare river cards like 3flush and 4straight, especially with the description of SAG, and her action in this hand. Why else is she cold calling and never raising? AND HELL, if she's so "out to get you" maybe she bluffs the Jack and you get a decent side-pot.

I'm interested to see what others think.

Nice post.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

The river is a J, making the board A-J-4-A-J.

What's your river move? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]

check call, if I had a read on him when the jack hit then check fold. I think he has either a J or a busted straight draw, and he's not going to call me with a busted straight draw. if he bets, you're probably toast but if he does something real obvious like flinging his chips in forcefully then I call.

[ QUOTE ]

I open-raise with QQ UTG+1. 3 players cold-call, and the big blind calls. (The first cold-caller is the "steaming Asian girl" This player is, as they say, out to get me.

[/ QUOTE ]

is she hot? you could try something like "wow, seems like I've really got your number tonight, maybe I could call you tomorrow?" wink wink.

[ QUOTE ]

The flop is 8-9-10, two-tone. Lovely. I bet, Steaming Asian Girl calls, other limper raises, I re-raise, SAG calls, other limper calls all-in.
The river is a Q. The good news is I just hit a set, but the bad news is it put a one-card straight on the board.
What's your move on the river? Why?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am unafraid of the other limper, I think he's just raising to get all his chips in so he can go home. the question is how likely is she to have a J here? JT, JQ, AJ are all possibilities, I think the most likely being JT. most of the hands that we are beating I would rule out, since I think she would have raised the turn with 2 pair, and reraised you preflop with AA KK etc. she may have AT but I think she would have raised you on the flop.

so because I cannot think of many hands that she would have that she would play this way that don't contain a J, I am going to go with the super weak tight check call with the ol' set I didn't need to hit. you are going to hate a raise, and she may very well bluff at you (since she hates you) on a board like this.

--turnipmonster

[trillig]

Hand #1

I bet the river anyhow, keeping that representing Ace in order....

Also, if you get called, you get some cheap advertising for later even if you have to call one more bet.

Yesterday this happened to me:

Board at river with no action after flop,

Ac4cAd4h6c

I won it with Jc5c and got 2 callers with K's...

Earlier a guy mucked his hand with a heart with 4 hearts on board and buddy and I split the pot with our matching two pairs with our kings:

Board was: AhAcQh4hKh

Just remember how long the odds are once the board pairs...

Just from my own observation, 50% of the time NO ONE has the needed card even with 4 people still in, let alone heads up.

The guy who mucked the winning hand was pretty bad, I cremed him later with this beauty: [this was a B&M game btw]

Flop: 6hQc6c Turn: 10d

At this point:

Him: Bet
Me: Raise
Him: reraise
Me: reraise
Him: reraise
Me: reraise
Him: reraise
Me: reraise
Him: reraise
Me: called, became pointless he had about 8 bucks left.

River: 9

Just 1 bet this time, lol!

I had QQ
He had TT

Shouldn't you wake up after that many raises that your boat is probably not good? LOL! Especially, because I raised PF and raised after flop?
[yes, I realize bad players don't tend to wake up... but this was a rare extreme example]

I left after one more hand due to prior commitment, I think the table would miss that guy if he left.

I digress....

Hand #2

That's a nightmare flop for ANY QQ/KK/AA, I turn into, check call 1 bet only man on that one, unless a non-flush J comes.

In general:
Very dangerous flop, in a tourney, I might fold it after flop to one bet if there were 3+ ppl still in and I had poor position.
Rather look for better op and avoid getting smashed on that one, so what if runner runner is QQ, don't TILT! Happens to us all, or you just don't play enough...

-Bri

[bdk3clash]

I checked both times, and both times it was checked behind me.

I don't know what my opponents held. In hand 1, I guess I figured SAG to have a J more than 33% of the time. Betting when she has a J costs me 2 bets, since I have to call her raise for previously mentioned reasons (she might be bluffing, since she's out to get me) and pot size. Additionally, there's the emotional sting of getting raised on such an obvious board on the river. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Betting when she doesn't have a J gains me 0, 1, or 2 bets (0 if she has nothing and folds, 1 if she has something and calls, 2 if she bluff-raises and I call), so I think check-calling was right, though others may disagree.

In hand #2, I just thought I was screwed. It was hard for me to think of what the guy could have that didn't involve and A or a J that he's calling there with, but I guess he was just being stubborn with an underpair or whatever. I would have contemplated folding if he bet the river, but would almost surely just called down.

Anyone bet there and fold to a raise? Unless he's capable of a stone-cold river bluff (I didn't suspect he was), does that gain me one bet when he's willing to call down and only cost me one bet when I'm behind, whether he raises or calls (which he might do with a J)? Or is it better to check-call to induce a bluff, since folding the winner here would be disastrous?