2+2 table - KQo from Button

[easypete]

I'm ready for my slashing (per request of Trix (MP1):

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls.

Yes! I did 3-bet this. This is my thinking (admittedly incorrect)... On a normal table I would call this (I play 1/2 and .50/1). I get whipped if I cold call, so I raise.

The table hadn't been playing as tight as it was last week. In hindsight... I put Trix on good cards. The way the table has been playing, this could be anywhere from AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, an Ace (AK - A6). Don't remember Trix playing low aces, but it had been happening a lot. A high Suited K. Am I wrong to play this? Maybe, but I feel I beat more than half the hands I feel I could be up against, plus I am on the button... have position. I would have rather called, but on this table?

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Rainbow! Now I have to fear AA, KK, QQ, AQ. Trix checks, I bet... No raise.. I feel I'm in good shape.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

I don't fear QQ anymore. have to fear only AQ (unlikely due to no raise on flop. (No chance of Q9). I bet turn.

River: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 6.75 BB, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Kh Qd (full house, queens full of sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins 7.75 BB. </font>

In retrospect, I should have called pf, but then if Trix would have come out betting on flop, Trix may have raised on flop, then what? I don't feel I played this bad, but I'm sure there are many who do.

Let me have it!

Thanks,

Easy

[sublime]

Post flop is fine, and after seeing some of my pre-flop play last night this is stellar!!

I agree with you though, I even raised EP with A3s as the raises were getting enormous amounts of respect.

I would like to hear how some of the vets view this pre-flop play.

[JSD]

I think you should fold pre-flop. There were a few loose raises around the table, but most of them were coming from the CO and Button as blind steals. And I don't think I saw Trix get out of line from EP/MP at all.

KQo is not a hand you want to be playing against a TA player who open-raises from EP/MP. You're behind AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ, and you're going to lose a LOT of money to all of these hands when a K or Q hits. And you're behind AJ/JJ/TT/99/88 unless you spike top pair, and you're probably not making a lot of money in these cases (like here).

And those are pretty much all of the hands Trix (or any good player) would raise with there. You're behind ALL of them pre-flop. When you catch your TP, you're losing BIG to half of them and winning SMALL to half of them. Sure there will be the freak flops where you catch two pair or a straight, but the same holds true for 65o and you wouldn't play that hand here, right?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I never played in these 2+2 tables, but KQo isn't a hand I 3bet agaisnt good players. Maybe I would with KQs. With KQo I don't think you gain much by playing and I don't think you loose much by folding either.

[MortalNuts]

In a full game, I normally consider this an easy fold to a tight EP-ish raiser. There's too much chance you're dominated, and will make a second-best hand that you'll have to pay off all the way.

If you thought the open-raises were getting way too loose, that's different, and it's 7-handed, blah, blah blah. If I decided to play, I would almost assuredly 3-bet rather than call.

But yeah, most of the time I'd fold PF here.

Post-flop's fine, obviously.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
There were a few loose raises around the table, but most of them were coming from the CO and Button as blind steals. And I don't think I saw Trix get out of line from EP/MP at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my defense, Games 511969025 and 511843246 (NOT the same hand), Trix raise pf in EP w/ AJo (won both hands btw). AJo and KQo are in the same group (4). I understand that in a HU situation AJ is better than KQ, but I was on the button on this hand. In position, can't play KQo?

I'm a still learning (and loosing money trying to play aggressive). I know aggressive play is not natural and must be learned (POP). I will make mistakes. I am learning good lessons in the 2+2 game. Last week I left table after 209 hands + $19. I got a false sense of security and hence lost $250 playing 1/2 aggressively for the week. I need to stop the bleeding... If this were a normal table, would I have played it correctly? Should I still have folded KQ on the button?

On a side note, I tried changing my style for the normal tables from aggressive pf to passive. I became passive/aggressive. Last night, after the 2+2 table, I tried this. I only raise pf w/ group 1. I tightened up (getting rid of KJo except for blind steals and even KQ to a raise). After the flop, I became aggressive. After 200 hands, up $180 (90 BB), playing 1/2 6-max hi-speed.

Should the passive/aggressive style be more suited for non 2+2 games?

- EP

[JSD]

Pete, I wouldn't call AJo a loose raise, especially if its a little shorthanded. It and KQo are probably the worst hands I'm open-raising with pre-flop and AJo is definitely a better hand than KQo because of the Ace.

As far as what hands to play pre-flop at the 2+2 table vs. a normal Party table, I tend not to think about them in terms of the S&amp;M groups (which I never bothered to memorize in the first place). I think about them in terms of what plays well multi-way vs. what plays well heads-up. At the 2+2 table, most hands are heads-up to the flop, so you only want to play premium heads-up hands (i.e., big pairs and high cards), and nearly ALL of these hands are worth open-raising or 3-betting with (AA-TT/AK/AQ). KQ and AJ (and maybe 99?) are weird in that you don't mind open-raising with them, but you don't really want to play them against someone else who open-raised.

At a normal table, you still want to play all of these hands, and still want to raise/3-bet them. But with so many hands seeing 5 or 6 to the flop for one bet, you also want to start limping with hands that play well multi-way: Axs, suited connectors and small pairs. Maybe even suited one-gappers and Kxs from LP. You wouldn't dream of limping with these hands at the 2+2 table.

Hands like KJo, KTo, ATo, A9o, QJo, etc are generally garbage at either kind of table. They don't play well multi-way and they suck heads-up. About the only thing they are good for is open-raising as a blind steal from the CO or button. If they are suited, they are probably worth a limp in a loose-passive game, but at the 2+2 table, suitedness loses some of its value since most pots are heads-up.

[sthief09]

just because it was suggested to you that you shouldn't cold-call raises doesn't give you an excuse to 3-bet marginal hands, and yes, KQo is a marginal hand when faced with a raise.

as far as I'm concerned, against a sane player, especially with no one in between me, KQo is automuck. think about the hands he'll raise PF:

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99 (maybe), AK, AQ, AJs, KQs

against these holdings, you'll win a grand total of 30% of the time

3-betting a good player (ie- Trix) with KQ is a LAG move

[bisonbison]

Especially against good players (and in tourneys), you want to keep the Gap Concept in mind.

That's the gap between cards you'd open-raise with and those you'd call/raise with given that someone else has open-raised.

Imagine that Trix has a range of hands he'd open-raise with from EP:

Group A: AA, KK, QQ, AK
Group B: JJ, TT, AQ
Group C: AJ, KQ, 99

Forgetting all the actual distribution frequencies, the average strength of his raising hands is somewhere around TT or AQ.

If you hold any of the Group A or Group B hands, your strength compares well to the range of what he could be holding and you should be happy to get involved. But if you hold any of the Group C hands, you are below his average, and quite possibly dominated, which can prove very expensive.

What's good to raise with is not good to call a raise or reraise with.

As you move further towards late position, most good player's raising standards broaden, so if the CO raises, it's often right for the Button to 3-bet with those 3rd tier hands, because CO may have now added hands like AT, A9, KJ, 88 and so on to his raising repertoire.

edit: damn you sthief!

[chief444]

I have never played with Trix (that I'm aware of) but I'm assuming based on her posts that she plays a pretty solid T/AG game. Against that type of player I always fold KQo unless I think they are stealing or have another reason to believe they may be raising with a weaker hand than normal. There are however some I play with regularly at a local cardroom that are extremely L/AG and I would almost always reraise KQo to try to get heads up against a hand I WILL have an advantage over most of the time. So I would agree with you that there are times when your play is correct. But this isn't one of them IMO. I do like the reraise vs. calling though. I would very rarely just call with it. It's usually raise, reraise or fold.

Don't forget you need a better hand to call a raise than you need to raise with. That basic lesson definitely applies here.

[sthief09]

don't you love spending 10 minutes posting, only to see that someone else posted the same thing while you were typing your response /images/graemlins/tongue.gif been there, done that

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]

In my defense, Games 511969025 and 511843246 (NOT the same hand), Trix raise pf in EP w/ AJo (won both hands btw). AJo and KQo are in the same group (4). I understand that in a HU situation AJ is better than KQ, but I was on the button on this hand. In position, can't play KQo?


[/ QUOTE ]


you can't just compare your hand with the bottom end of the spectrum for an opponent's raising standards... just because someone has raised AJo doesn't mean he doesn't have AA.

you also have to consider the quality of opponent. the players at the table all have much more experience than you. that means they will be able to consistently outplay you post-flop. as a result, you have to avoid situations where you could be at a severe disadvantage, like KQ against AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ.

and position doesn't automatically make your hand much, much better. it helps, but dominated hands are dominated, regardless of what position thye are played in.