Should I Have Defended my BB?

This is a hand I had last night that is quite bothering me:


Dealt 98o in BB. UTG, MP1 limped. Rest folded to button, a good player who raised. I thought for a few seconds and mucked. UTG and MP1 called.


Three-handed on the flop of T J x. UTG checks, MP1 bets, both called.


Turn 7! No flush draw. UTG checks, MP1 bets, button raised, UTG folds, MP1 called.


River 6c. MP1 checks, button bets, MP1 called. Button showed AJ to take the pot.


My question is should I have called the raise for 1 more bet knowing for sure that both UTG and MP1 will call? Somehow I got a mental block whether I have the correct odds to call or am I just being results-oriented?


Comments, please?

You should fold 98o in your big blind to all "legitimate" raises. In fact, you should probably fold it to a steal-raise as well.


Playing 98o here isn't a terrible play. However, I expect it is a small money loser. More importantly, if it is a +EV play to call with it, it is such a small +EV play that you are not giving up anything substantial by folding here.

First of all your post must come to an end after "... button, a good player who raised". The rest of the post only confuses the issue with detrimental hind-site justifications. For example, your 3rd from last paragraph was wrong: The river was an A, MP bet and 3-bet button and won with a KQ straight. NOW how do you feel about laying down your 98? It doesn't matter how you feel about it...


If your opponents play predictably after the flop your 98 is a marginal, very marginal winner getting presumably 7:1. Otherwise its a dog and should be routinely passed.


Unsuited hands with a card less than T are NEVER "good".


- Louie

If you feel you have a good handle on how your opponents play post flop, then its not a terrible call. Its simple - you flop 2 pair, trips, or a straight draw or your gone on the flop. However I'd say 3 players (without you) is the absolute minimum to call with this.


Of course this comes on the heels of me calling with 56o in the same situation (except one was the SB), and winning a 22 bb pot.. heh.

Louie,


I'll try to do better with my punctuation next time.


But I cannot understand your statement: "The river was an A, MP bet and 3-bet button and win with KQ straight."


?????


BTW, thanks for the analysis.

ok I strongly disagree.


If he's confident that there will be no check-raise, then he caqn make the easy call. 8-1 is enough to call with less than 89o.


I think it's a no-brainer if he's confident in his read that the other 2 players will call, and not re-raise.


~D

8-1 is enough to call with less than 89o...it's a no-brainer


I also think it's reasonable to assume that UTG and MP1 will just call the raise rather than limp-reraising. Given that, you are only getting slightly more than 7:1 pot odds to make this call (most of the small blind will be raked).


7:1 is not enough to make this call. The odds of you flopping either a straight or and 8-out straight draw (either open-ended or double belly buster) are 7.5:1. Of course, this is extremely close to what the pot is currently offering. However, you will be flopping the straight draw 8 times more often than the straight and will have to pay to hit your draw.


When you're in these marginal situations pre-flop with weak hands like 98o, you should just muck them.


I don't think most players appreciate how weak these offsuit connectors are. Playing them with just 2-4 other players in the pot is an easy way to throw your money away.


BTW, if he held 98s, it is definitely an easy call. By making the cards suited, he now only needs 5:1 pot odds since he can also flop a flush draw as well as the straight draw.

if it was suited i might consider it. but you have a 'good' player raising some EP/mp limpers..


i think you know it was a good fold, but saw the hand result and are now questioning it...


b

"But I cannot understand your statement: "The river was an A, MP bet and 3-bet button and win with KQ straight"


i think it was meant as hypothetical. how you can be trapped on a bottom end. like if your 9 hits, counterfeiting you. on a flop where you have the lower 2parts, any overcard can make a str8 bigger than yours.. and an A would be tougher to get away from than say a Q or a 9 hitting...


b

just reread a little..and no, im not referencing any books or pages...


if their were more callers, you can call in the BB with your 98os....


just be careful with it...


i avoid it cause i try to get away from tough decisions.


but again...if its suited, im in there...


ciao...


b

I would very rarely call on the ignorant end of a straight - only when I have a good read that the opponent can be betting on 2 pairs, etc.


I posted the question because the way Louie put it was more confusing than my original post where my punctuations were off the mark.

it would be tougher to fold if only the A shows because then he needs both cards in his hand to beat you. with an A he needs KQ. id probably call it...to where i wouldnt call if there was 4 to a str8 on the board. see what i mean...


b

I don't recal giving a thought to any "puncuation" issue you may have had.


I was suggesting that your post ..err.. your hand analysis should have ended when you folded since the REST of the hand has no bearing on whether or not you should have folded; which was the key question. Quality analysis suffers a lot when you know you WOULD have won a large pot had you called. So I gave an example where you LOST a huge pot (MP snagged his A high straight) and encouraged you to see how you "felt" about that.


Well that also should have no bearing on whether or not you should call.


Sorry for the confusion.


- Louie