LL hands, critiques wanted.

Typical $4-$8 game. Please give thoughts on what to do in the following scenarios, what actually happened will be posted in reply. All comments appreciated.


Hand #1: call KJo 2 from button. New player whom I don't know from Adam, and has posted behind button, raises preflop. 6 people see flop. Flop comes KQ9 rainbow. 4 players check to me. I bet, guy to my right raises, one other calls. Turn is another K...


Hand #2: Mid-late position with A8s. Three callers thus far, I call. Flop comes 988 with 2 of a suit. Tight player bets into me, I raise (correct?), a couple of people call, she reraises, and I cap. She tries to raise again. At this point, I'm quite sure I'm in deep trouble. Turn comes with the A, and she bets into me...


Hand #3: KQs in big blind. 6 others preflop. I raise in BB. Flop comes T62 with 1 of my suit. I check, person to my left bets, everyone calls to me...


Hand #4: KTo in my BB. Raise in mid position from player likely to have good hand. 6 others in pot. I call in BB (correct?) and flop comes Txx. I bet (correct?), 1 caller, and then get raised by original raiser...


All help appreciated.


M.

Hand #1: (call KJo 2 from button)


My thinking is that I'm likely beat, but there are enough hands that he could have (AQ or AA being the most likely) that would warrant a bet in that position that I have to call. I check and call turn, river is an 8, I check and call, he shows QQ and takes the pot.


Hand #2: (Mid-late position with A8s).


I'm quite sure she has a boat, but the chance that she had 98 makes it worth my time to call. If I hadn't hit the A, then I would have had to consider myself on a draw for an 8 or an A, and since I'm drawing nowhere near the nuts, I'd have to consider folding. I'd like to think I would have folded, but there's no accounting for "the cuckoo factor"..


Hand #3: (KQs in big blind)


I call due to the size of the pot, I hit a rainbow K on the turn. I bet out, get two callers, complete rag on the river, bet again, and beaten by the last caller who had AK and didn't raise me on the turn.


PS 5 hands later, another solid player does exact same thing with exact same hand (KhQh), flops a flush and the Jh on the river makes his royal.. *sigh*.. I could have been you, you could have been me..


Hand #4: (KTo in my BB).


At this point, I put him on AK/AQ or an overpair. I check call the turn - a blank - and check the river - another blank - with intent to call a bluff. He checks the river and shows AA.


Thanks for all your help!


M.

[1] New players who raise their first two opportunities are MUCH more likely to be overly aggressive or maniac types (or aggressive-on-the-first-hand types) then they are to actually have AK or better.


Bet. Your chances of having the best hand is quite high, ESPECIALLY against a new player who has raised every opportinity (twice) so far. You will certainly call any bet and in fact call a raise cold with your top trips. If button checks you will certainly wish you had bet.


[2] The fact that you got two cold calls proves raising the flop was correct. No sense in disguising your hand if they are going to call anyway. On the turn, this is the CLASSIC go-for-the-over-card situation, where potential callers can almost NEVER beat your hand, but will call drawing dead, and you genuinly fear the bettor. Calling with other players in is a no brainer here. (The exception would be if you the bettor is brain dead and will gleefully cap it with an inferior hand.)


Are you heads-up on the turn? The opponent can realistically have A8 (2 hands), 98 (3 hands), or 99 (3 hands). So if you were in geniun do-do on the flop then you are still only even money on the turn and should NOT raise since you are risking 2 (he may reraise) to win 1 (his call).


[3] Call. Your call closes the action (you cannot get raised) and you have a whip-saw and two overcards. Half the deck gives you a reasonable hand. You are getting about 18:1 to draw to a 50:50 hand that will win about 25% of the time.


[4] Heads-up you are a CLEAR underdog with your dominated out-of-position unsuited trouble hand and should clearly fold. This hand MAY get a tiny bit better with a bunch of loose callers, but not nearly enough to over-come your terrible situation: you need to flop 2-pair or better to like it. Pass before the flop.


I would probably check-raise the flop (partly because I routinly check out of the blinds), but also because you NEED to raise to chase out the over-cards and gut draws out against you. Certainly call the flop raise getting 16:1 and then sweat it out on the turn getting about 9:1.


See the terrible situation you are in ON the flop even after getting a pretty good flop? That give weight to my fold before the flop advise.


- Louie

You should fold KJo pre-flop. It is a hand which is likeley to make second best hands which you will feel compelled to pay off all the way to the river.


Once you make it to the turn, you have trips and gut-shot straight draw. You bet. It's a bit too risky to go for a check-raise after the top card on the board has paired. However, I would not be surprised to see you lose this hand.

I'd raise again with my full-house. The odds of her holding 99 are the same as her holding 98. If she holds 99, then you are drawing to two outs. If she holds 98, she is drawing dead. She may also be drawing dead with just a stiff 8. With other players in the pot besides the two of you, it's an easy raise.

There are twenty big bets in the pot when the flop action gets to you. Your call will close the action.


You need 27:1 pot odds in order to profitably draw to a backdoor flush draw. However, if you have other outs, you can call with as little as 10:1. In your situation, I think either a Queen or a King on the turn will give you the best hand on this uncoordinated board. Call the flop bet and fold on the turn if you don't improve.

If she has 99, doesn't Moose have 3 outs? 1-8 and 2-Aces for quads or a higher boat?


btw, don't forget the very slim chace she has AA.


Regardless, I'd be betting pretty strong with this hand and expect to win most of the time.

You should be folding weak hands like KTo in the big blind for a raise. KTo, like KJo in Hand #1, is very likely to make a second best which you will feel compelled to pay off all the way to the river.


You will be giving up very little if you NEVER play KJo, KTo, QJo, and QTo.


You should call the flop bet and fold unimproved on the turn.

Obviously, he does indeed have 3 outs against 99.


I never put anybody on AA without a pre-flop raise. So, occasionally, I'll get suckered.

She had 99 for a boat on the flop.

.. the KJo was maybe a bit fishy still being a post and another player behind me, but defending my BB with KTo seemed pretty fair to me.


Believe me, I'm well aware these are borderline hands.


M.

I know that those are bad hands, but for the same reason you can call anything for 1/3 of a bet in the SB in 15-30, couldn't you call the raise since you're getting well over 12-1 for your extra bet before the flop?


IIRC, S&M suggest calling any Ace in the BB, for instance, when you will close the action, or any two suited cards, or down to 75o.


However, you feel that I will lose very little, especially compared to the vagrances of standard deviation, by folding these over my lifetime. That seems reasonable too.


M.

What about huge overlay for flopping 2 pair


The odds of flopping two pair, trips, full-house, or quads are 27.8:1. That's why playing "any two cards" is a long term loser.


S&M suggest calling any Ace in the BB


Where did you read that? Mason has repeatedly said he will fold AJo in the big blind against a non-steal raise. Calling with any Ace is definitely a losing play. You're just calling with a payoff hand most of the time.


or any two suited cards


You can call with suited connectors because you are 5:1 to flop either a flush or straight draw. You definitely should not be calling with just any two suited cards.


or down to 75o.


You should be folding offsuit connectors up to JTo against a non-steal raise, and maybe QJo.

"S&M suggest calling any Ace in the BB "


or sb for that matter....i believe S&M were referring to shorthanded games...


"or any two suited cards"


in the sb in an unraised pot...


defending your blind with lesser hands you better know the type of player that is raising...i defend with some hands against some that i wouldnt defend against others...if in doubt, play it tight....and wait til your in a more comfortable situation...


b

you can play those hands as a defense in the BB. but ya gotta know the players. thats the main part of it. dont overplay em in the BB. like say, a tight ass rock raises from EP. you know thw lowest thing hell raise here is AK...so dump it...


i think your on the right track,...this goes for hands like KJos KT AT AJ. they can be used in defense of raisers....just be careful...


b

i think your on the right track,...this goes for hands like KJos KT AT AJ. they can be used in defense of raisers


All these offsuit hands are likely to be payoff hands against pre-flop raises or will not get any action from a smaller pair when you flop top pair of Aces or Kings.

As mason said in a post once. AJo is the worst possible hand you could have against a solid preflop raiser.


I'd rather have 9To than ANY of the hands bernie mentions.

im not gonna say where i read and learned how to apply it. however it also states to be cautious and know the player when defending with these hands...


however in that previous post is almost a verbatim quote from....nope....not saying....


b

Oh, don't get me wrong, your statement is correct. If I have a good feel for the table, I'm playing those hands, provided that its not headsup.


But I think that mucking them all is correct for a newer player like the original poster. It takes a while to learn how and when to get away from top pair.

it takes time to learn how to play these hands...and a newer player is better off mucking.

they should know a little about shorthanded play, since it can be similar here.


but why not plant the seed? haha then he may study blind play a little and learn how to do it...


but i dont know the experience level of the poster here, so i thought id suggest it...if he is a newbie, it may peak his interest to study it...


btw...against certain players, ill defend it HU. the more players calling a raise, the more likely better hands may be calling ahead of you...which is a better case for me mucking...im looking for a HU against a weaker player.


also HU, there you can control how much you lose...since you wont be caught in between raisers on a flop or turn...


selectivity and knowledge is key ...


b

i think its better to learn this at a lower limit where it wont cost as much and the players are weaker in general....


to start learning this play at mid/higher limit could prove costly


b