Newbie 5-10 6 max warning

[Oilcan]

FOR THOSE CONSIDERING 5-10 6 MAX PLEASE CONSIDER THESE WORDS.

This post is a bit different than the usual. I wish I could tell you about how good the SH game was for me, but I can't.

My attempt at making more money by playing 5-10 6 max was a FAILURE.

After reading all the constant posts here about how much more $ or bb/hr you will make playing sh, I read up, and played some hours at 1-2 6 max, till I had a good feel for it.

What you can learn from my experience and what I can tell you is:

1. Your bankroll variance will be MUCH, MUCH, HIGHER,
(2-5 times more) than limit playing. This variance will occur MUCH, MUCH, more frequently, weekly and/or even every other day.

2. Many active posters here talk of all the "soft" games, the "weak" starting hands players will see the flop with.
That is part of the problem. Players will call/raise with hands like 7-9 off or K-3s. It is extremely difficult with such a wide range holdings to put someone on a hand.


3. All of my own "numbers", ie $won, %WSD, winning sessions, etc, everything , was just so opposite of my ring play, (I honestly just don't understand how people say they are doing so well in these games.)

If you do wish to give it a shot, I would recommend you have at least 500-1000 BB bankroll.

My experience and talking with others who play SH have said they have seen BB variance/losses of 250 - 350BB, in as little as 1-3 days. I would'nt doubt if there are players, whether they are consistent winners or not, that may have even larger drawdowns.

In closing, I have no axe to grind with any posters here who say they are making $ playing SH.
Hopefully this info will help someone whether to play and be better prepared or to pass on it.

Good luck and see you at the full ring tables.

Oil

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Oil:

There is no question your short term fluctuations playing short handed will and should be much higher. I suspect that some of the great results you are hearing about are from people who have just run good.

On the other hand, if you do become an expert short handed player, your win rate against typical players should be higher than what you would experience in a full ring game. However, short handed play is different from full table play, so make sure you understand the right concepts or you may not be playing as well as you think you are. (See the short handed section in Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players for more information.)

Best wishes,
Mason

[stripsqueez]

i do beat short handed games and have done so consistently - i do think the party 5/10 6 max school is soft - i have never had a 350BB downturn

i dont disagree with the tenor of your post though - its easy for someone winning at a higher limit to remark on how easy it is to beat a lower limit game - there is a bunch of guys who post here who are beating 10/20 short handed and above - when one of them says the party 5/10 6 max game is the blind school of internet mid limit short handed hold'em they are probably right - but it pays to remember where they are coming from

i can compare my profession - the best lawyer i know often remarks that she cant believe what she gets paid to do something as mundane and simple as what she does for a living - of-course its not mundane or simple - its really hard - and only experience and considerable expertise would cause you to view it otherwise

get back to that 1/2 game - burn it up and try again

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Azhrarn]

As a corollary to this warning, here is my experience with the 5/10 SH game at Party. I typically play two SH tables simultaneously.

I beat the game with decent results for about five months. Losing days were common, but losing weeks were rare. At the tail end of the five months, I had a nice ten-week winning streak with a much higher win rate than previously. Naturally, I attributed this to better play on my part.

Then the bottom fell out. I've recorded five straight losing weeks. I've spewed up over 400 BB during this time, including 300 in a particularly miserable ten days. I've posted hands, I've read advice, I've studied my play, and you know what? I'm not playing any worse than I was during my big winning streak.

So I keep plugging away. I think things will turn around.
Shorthanded can be particularly vicious if you don't adjust to it. But even if you're adjusted, it can still bite you in the ass.

P.S. I do consider myself a decent player, but I'm certainly not an expert.

[TwoNiner]

Following Stripsqueeze's advice I just made the change to 5-10 6 max and have been lucky enough to start of running well while getting acclimated. At first, I tried to just find the games with the lower pot amounts that seemed passive and I think that is a good way to settle in after coming from the full ring games. You don't want to be playing with guys who raise KJ from early position, and know how to be aggressive it's just too hard to make that big of an adjustment.

As for me, now my best games seem to be when I come home from the bars and play against all the other late night drunks. In all likelihood I am twice as drunk as they are, but being close to a functioning alcoholic I think I have a nice overlay. If you can find one or two peopl who limp with bad cards, I think these games can be real good.

[stoxtrader]

I've played with and read numerous posts from strip and azhrahn and believe they both can beat these games. I thikn strip in particular does a good job of not being condescending even though he is obviously very good.

Variance is higher, I guess, I never played enough full ring to find out, over 40k hands in PT I'm running at a std. dev of 16.6BB/100, but I'm playing between 250 and 350 hands/hr... I'm going to guess that's a high number but I don't really know.

Ultimately, I think someone who does this with money as a primary motivator is looking to maximize hourly earn. SH tables increase hands dealt/table/hr, but a number of other players simply prefer to synthesize this same situation by playing full ring, but more table - I know astroglide and nykenny both play 4-8 maybe? I feel like I fold a lot as it is, I couldnt imagine playing full ring and having my mouse clicked on perma-fold.

[lil']

I would be interested in hearing about some hands you are not sure of.

I would also recommend playing one table at a time until you are used to it.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Then the bottom fell out. I've recorded five straight losing weeks. I've spewed up over 400 BB during this time, including 300 in a particularly miserable ten days

[/ QUOTE ]

i said before that i havent had a 350BB downturn - thats true but i've gone very close to that mark a few times - i've done over 300 twice in the last year that i can recall - 200BB downturns are common enough - 150BB downturns i barely notice

the worm will turn Azhrarn

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[daryn]

in my worst week i lost 250 bb, certainly you need more than a 300 bb bankroll for shorthanded play. man that was a bad week!