Limp reraise with good multiway hands?

I have a friend who I have observed making the following type of play consistently. He claims it helps him win some huge pots with little extra risk, and I wanted to know what the forum thought. Basically, any time he gets a good multiway hand, he will usually limp in. But, if it is raised behind him and a few people call that raise, he will often limp-reraise, building as big a pot as possible. I can see where this might lead to some huge take downs, but I think even if it is effective, it probably adds to your varience. I'll bet many people will feel pot stuck when it gets that big preflop. I personally have not really tried this (I'll raise with AXs in large multiway pots, but not reraise) but I think it might be a good play in loose LL games. I know it drives me crazy whenever I limp in behind him with 88, have it raised behind me and reraised by him. So I can imagine, this type of play might be good for psychological reasons too. Thoughts?

it does add to your variance, but its tougher to read too. since most ONLY do this with AA KK and AKs.


if its JTs and he can get away when the flop misses, go for it. but it will cost ya when ya miss, or if you flop a draw and miss. id usually want the maximum ways to win with this move...thats str8 and flush possiblities.


its also not bad to use this play as a variance, but youll be tying many to the pot. thus you may have to wait to the turn to try and destroy any drawing odds...


flop and turn play is key when doing this stuff


just some ideas...


b

Pumping the pot early with an unmade hand such as JTs is a poor move except for making you tough to read.


Pros:

- tough to read

- sets up a steal opportunity

- bigger pot if you hit and hand is good


Cons:

- hands such as JTs (speculative hands) like good implied odds, meaning you want to get in cheap and see lots of opponents

- JTs will usually not get a good flop

- if you flop a draw it's gonna cost you to chase, and you still usually won't hit your hand


Sorry to sound so sarcastic, but this is similar to raising 32s before the flop "if I hit it no one will know what I have and it'll be a huge pot." Gee, why not pump 72o just in case the flop comes 222 ... same thinking, where do you draw the line?


Read any smart poker writer and you'll see that such plays are rarely correct, just do them enough to keep 'em guessing. In the long run this play is a loser if you do it too much.


Not only is the usually-correct move with hands such as JTs to simply limp in, in loose games S&M advise frequently keeping it to a single bet before the flop to help your opponents make more mistakes.


In short, I feel that many posters here play way too aggressively for LL games, at least the LL games I've seen in Vegas, LA and private clubs. "Fancy Play Syndrome" to use a phrase coined by Mike Caro, when your opponents are simply too dumb for it to work. Save your fancy plays and money for when you move up to the tougher games.

would you raise AXs after say 5-6 people limp in in front of you? Just courious. Also, does anyone have a mathematical example of why this is/is not a good play?

"Read any smart poker writer and you'll see that such plays are rarely correct, just do them enough to keep 'em guessing. In the long run this play is a loser if you do it too much"


where in my post did i say to make this a standard, routine play? if you do them enough, they lose theyre impact obviously.


"Sorry to sound so sarcastic, but this is similar to raising 32s before the flop "if I hit it no one will know what I have and it'll be a huge pot." Gee, why not pump 72o just in case the flop comes 222 ... same thinking, where do you draw the line? "


this is a little extreme here...i hope you know the difference between a suited connector, and 72os. theyre miles apart.


JTs or even 78s with a alot of callers is a great raise to make in LP. sorry that your 'convinced' that its a 'fancy play'. its merely just another tool in the box...kind of like raising out of the BB with JTs with 4-5 limpers....


based on your adamancy of this, i can probably tell what you have when you raise preflop, depending on your position...with probably pretty good accuracy...which is what youd likely put someone else on when you see a raise preflop.


im not trying to be mean, but on certain types of tables, especially passive, where players arent gonna charge you much, you have many options of how to play a hand. there is no 'black and white' formula for this. much more gray area than on a tight passive table, where a misplay will be harder to recoup your loss.


and playing against the same players alot, you should be willing to mix it up a bit. even bad players, given enough time, will pick up on your tendencies.


some ideas...


b

Very rarely would I ever raise or limp-reraise AXs after 5 limpers before the flop.


(Consult your odds charts.) AXs will not make a flush very often at all; certianly not enough to warrant decreasing your own implied odds. Don't shoot yourself in the foot: big hands bet early, little hands bet late. (Also consult various writings on implied odds if unclear on the subject.)


If you do not flop a flush or flush draw, you have 2 other possible flops that will keep you interested. Either you'll get an ace, or alternately you'll hit your kicker. In short, you'll see about 14% of the time a flop that either gives you a made hand or a draw to the nut flush (the 14% figure also includes miracle flops such as AAA, top full, etc). As you probably know, that nut flush draw will make it home about half the time, and of the times that it hits it sometimes will be no good (beaten by a boat or better). Remember also that you had 5 limpers before you, effectively decreasing the number of Aces in the deck ... all those limpers, well, you have to assume they saw something they liked and it's a good chance someone else has an Ace.


Hence, you're looking realistically at only getting to where you need to be about 5% of the time ... or in other words the table is about 20:1 against your holding of AXs being the best.


Given these numbers, you'll want at least a 20 to 1 return on your money preflop for those times you do get a hand. Unless there's a couple dozen people sitting at the table ... pretty damn tough to do, no?


Your only other hope is to bluff your way out, assuming you don't flop a made hand or a draw. Your preflop raise may seem to help you out here, but you've still got an uphill climb. Bluffing's questionable at best because, 1) there's a lot of money in the pot making chasing correct for many players, 2) you have a lot of contestants and SOMEONE will have a strong hand, and 3) this is low limits and your opposition wants to call anyway.


I am really starting to wonder why SO MANY people here like to raise AXs preflop, and also argue against my logic even though their best defense so far has either been "well, the pot'll be big if you make your hand" or "it keeps 'em guessing." Furthermore, no credible poker writer advises such play in general except for OCCASIONALLY and that is even under the caveat of doing so against savvy opponents - not what you really expect in LL where you're gonna see schooling and suckouts.


I suspect that just as the fish came to the table to call, many of the posters here are looking for excuses to raise - or worse yet limp-reraise and checkraise. To echo the wirtings of every writer: "slowplaying is rarely correct," not to mention the numerous warnings against trying fancy plays against schooling fish.


In closing, I will let my ego gnash its teeth in the future and will try to not be drawn into this argument again. Play your cards as you wish, but I will follow logic and the experts instead.

By AXs I mean a suited ace with something lower then Ten as the kicker. Obviously AK-ATs is a much different holding than, say, A6s.


When I spoke of catching flops such as those that give you a pair of aces, in no way do I mean that these are necessarily worthwhile (dominated hand theory). In fact, playing a flopped pair of Aces here requires great skill and luck. In that regard, my 14% number is perhaps a little generous. Catching your "X" kicker on the flop is equally dismal. To me, I'd have to flop 2 pair, a nut flush draw or better to consider it worthwhile. 14% goes down yet again.


Furthermore, my musings on the subject are colored by loose LL games, both passive and aggressive. In a loose-wild game, AXs is simply unplayable from any position. End of story. In loose or mildly aggressive games there is still little reason to pump such a holding before the flop. AXs will rarely get a friendly flop, so why push your luck? Better off hitting the craps tables and "pressing the hardways."


In tougher games ... well, the original question is probably irrelevant as the poster stated that he had 5 limpers before the flop. Any game with 5 EP/MP limpers is highly improbable to be tough, and your opponents there are myopic at best, naked and blind at worst. If the game is tough and you have all that action, all the more reason to limp or even dump a near-trash hand such as AXs ... you're up against some darn powerful cards and your only hope is to flop a four flush or better.