Poker Essay for English 101 Tell me what you think

[JTrue]

Jason True

In every casino table game, except poker and to some extent blackjack, luck is the leading factor on whether you win or lose. Playing Texas Hold ‘em, a form of poker, is one way to skew the odds in your favor. Taking part in a game of Hold ‘em and winning takes much more skill than luck. If you sit down at a table and can’t spot the sucker in the first few minutes, then you are the sucker. David Skalnsky and Mason Malmuth state in Hold ‘em Poker for the Advanced Player,“ You can win money playing poker because of two factors. In Texas Hold ‘em any two cards are capable of winning but to the expert player he knows that two random cards are not profitable enough to play. A second reason is that an expert has opportunities in Hold ‘em to make expert plays and extract additional profit from his opponents”(7). If you pay attention to the following advice, you too can become adept at playing and winning at Texas Hold ‘em.
To begin with you need to find a group of players to play with. Texas Hold 'em uses a disc called a dealer button to indicate where the cards are to be dealt. After each round the button rotates to the left. Hold ‘em is played with a deck of 52 cards excluding the Jokers, and Aces can be either high or low cards. Before the dealer starts dealing, two forced bets called blinds are put out by the two players to the left of the dealer. The first blind placed is half the amount of the next blind. These blinds are meant to create action on every hand. Next, two cards are dealt to each player; these will be his hole or pocket cards, that no one else will see. After the pocket cards are dealt each player has a chance to check the two cards and see if he wants to play the hand. The action starts on the person three seats to the left of the dealer. A player can either call the amount of the big blind, raise, or fold. After each player acts, the small blind can call the bet or fold. The big blind now has the chance to check, raise, or bet. Checking means to keep the current bet and continue with the play of the hand. After everyone has acted the dealer deals the first three cards called the flop. These are community cards that everyone can use to make the best five card poker hand. After the flop there is a round of betting. The action starts on the person to the left of the dealer, he can either check, raise, or fold. The next card is dealt; it is called the turn card. A betting round follows this card. The last card is dealt which is called the river card. After the round of betting is over, the players who haven’t folded show down their cards. Whoever has the best hand wins all the bets in the middle of the table. Although so far this game might seem straightforward, there are many intricacies and skills a player must learn in order to become a winning player. Four skills that are very important to learn are hand selection, playing your hand after the flop, reading players, and how to calculate odds on the spot.
After mastering the basic rules and play of Hold ‘em you can start using your skills rather than luck to allow you to win. In Cardplayer magazine Bob Ciaffone; a professional poker player states, “Poker players are constantly looking for one or a few “secrets” that have brought a top player success — and hope to learn those secrets so they can use them themselves. The truth is, a good player has a wide range of skills that separates him from the pack”(1). Hand selection consists of deciding which starting hands are profitable and which are not. If you get dealt cards that are weak you should throw your hand away. Basically, the strength of your pocket cards has a definitive result on whether you win the pot or lose.
Similarly, play on the flop is another very important aspect of this game. When the first three cards are shown if you have not paired any cards or do not have a flush or straight draw, the cards should be mucked. A flush draw is when you flop four to a suit and need one more card for the flush. A straight draw is when you flop four cards in consecutive order and can make your straight if a card completing the straight comes on the next round. The reason this is proper strategy is because the odds of actually making the best hand without pairs or draws after the flop decrease significantly.
Equally important is the skill of reading a player and trying to figure out exactly which two cards they hold. There are two ways to deduce what two cards your opponent holds. First, you can notice a player’s mannerisms such as how he puts chips into the pot, or how long it takes to make a decision. Another way to tell what cards a player holds is the way he plays his hand. If the flop comes down Queen, Jack, 3, and a player bets out, he most likely has a Queen. If an Ace comes on the turn and another player bets he most likely has an Ace. Reading hands will allow a player to know when he’s beat or when he’s ahead in the hand. Knowing how to read opponents is another skill needed to compete in the game of Texas Hold ‘em.
Likewise, calculating odds on the spot is a skill the must be in a player’s arsenal of weapons to use on his opponents. The most important odds to consider are called pot odds and odds about whether your hand will improve. To calculate pot odds you consider how much money is already in the pot and how much you will have to place in the pot in order to win it. Here is an example before the flop in a 10-20 game, UTG calls, MP calls, LP calls, SB completes and BB checks. On the next round you only have to put $10.00 in the pot to win $60.00 so you are getting 6-1 odds on your money. Figuring out odds on the chances of your hand improving is also a very important concept. Here is an example; if you hold the 6 and 7 of hearts and on the flop the cards come down 8 of spades and 9 of diamonds you can catch either a 5 of any suit or a 10 of any suit to make a straight. Since there are four 5’s in the deck and four 10’s in the deck you now have eight outs to make your hand. This will give you a 2.2-1 shot to make your hand on the turn and 4.8:1 on the river. If the pot odds are greater or a little less than your odds to improve your hand you should play the hand.
In conclusion, Texas Hold ‘em is a game filled with small intricacies that allow skill to be a major factor in winning and losing. There is some luck involved, but learning the proper skills will allow you to overcome the luck factor and make you a winning player. Most opponents do not know what you now know and therefore you have a much better chance to take their money and make them the suckers.
Works Cited
Ciaffone, Bob. “Tools of the Toughies.” Cardplayer. 15.1 (2002) : 3pgs. 18 March 2004
<http://www.cardplayer.com/?sec=afeature&art_id=12253>.
Sklansky, David, and Mason Malmuth. Hold ‘em Poker for Advanced Players. Las Vegas: Two Plus Two, 2003.

I AM NOT AN EXPERT SO IF I DO HAVE SOME MISTAKES PLEASE LET ME KNOW

[astroglide]

In the each table of casino play hooks of fanning and to a certain
extent is exceptionally above of Blackjack, of the chance the factor
directing if you gain or lose. Without sorrow, you hold Texas ` EM,
the shape of the hook of fanning, with single direction is skew the
advantages with your favours. to take part in a play of influence ` EM
and to gain take much more of capacity than of the chance. When you
can dirty hinsitzen and not Sauger during first minutes with a table
you are Sauger. David Skalnsky and of the masons Malmuth state in the
influence ` EM hook of fanning for the advanced player, "you can earn
money, of the hooks of fanning because of two factors play. In Texas `
EM influences are able all the two possible charts to gain, but with
the Spieler expert it knows that two occasional charts cannot be
played rather advantageous. A second reason is that an expert
occasions in an influence has ` EM to form and to extract the
additional profit from sound opponents"(7) a Spiele expert. If you
consider the following council, you can also become skilful to play
and to gain in Texas influences ` EM.

[Ulysses]

In every casino table game, 'escept poka' an' t' some kinda' 'estent blackjack, luck be da damn laidin' facta' on whetha' yo' ass win o' lose. Playin' Texas Hold ‘em, some form o' poka', be one way t' skew da odds in yo' favor. Snatchin' part in some game o' Hold ‘em an' winnin' snatchs much mo' skill dan luck. If yo' ass sit waaay down at some table an' kin’t spot da damn sucka' in da fust few minutes, den yo' ass be da damn sucka'. True dat. Isaac Skalnsky an' Mason Malmut' state in Hold ‘em Poka' 4 da Advanced Playa',“ Yo' ass kin win braid playin' poka' becuz o' deuce factors. Sheeeiit. In Texas Hold ‘em no deuce cards be capable o' winnin' but t' da damn 'espuh't playa' he knows dat deuce random cards aint profitable 'nuff t' play. Da bomb! Some second raison be dat some 'espuh't has opportunities in Hold ‘em t' make 'espuh't plays an' 'estract addishunal profit from wassups opponents” (down low, 7). If yo' ass pay attenshun t' da damn followin' De'ah Abby, yo' ass too kin become adept at playin' an' winnin' at Texas Hold ‘em.

[JTrue]

Thanks Ulysses for the sarcasm, I don't need it, go speak ebonics on the Unemployment website. I'm sure they have a forum for you.

[J.A.Sucker]

If I were teaching this class, I wouldn't like you posting it on the internet and having others read it for content and logical errors, and that would be if this were for a "gambling theory" or some other sort of class. For an English class, I think that this is doubly true, since you're supposed to learn to write better.

However, if you do get any feedback, outside of Ulysses' shizolator translation, I suggest you cite the actual people who give you advice, use the citation: XXXX, pers. comm. or acknowledge them directly.

[Ulysses]

OK, you want some actual criticism instead of levity. Here you go.

Your essay sounds like it was written by a fourth grader or someone who speaks English as a foreign language. It appears that you are simply stringing together random sentences with no coherent linking or context, resulting in a disjointed essay that does not flow at all. I assume this is high school English 101, though perhaps it is Junior College.

To begin with you need to find a group of players to play with. Texas Hold 'em uses a disc called a dealer button to indicate where the cards are to be dealt.

This is one example of many where it appears that you simply found some sentences having to do with poker and put them all together.

Good job.

[JTrue]

[ QUOTE ]
To begin with you need to find a group of players to play with. Texas Hold 'em uses a disc called a dealer button to indicate where the cards are to be dealt.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, maybe I haven't linked those two sentences correctly, but other than that show me where else the paper doesn't flow. Just because you got through college by sucking the profs dick and not writing your papers doesn't mean you have to be bitter. C'mon Ulysses can't we be civil to each other. Oh I forgot you are the great Carpal/Tunnel so lowly posters such as myself will be criticized by you because you have superiority over me. Get a life. What happend to you when you were a child?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, maybe I haven't linked those two sentences correctly, but other than that show me where else the paper doesn't flow.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many, many instances, but I have no desire to do your homework for you. Perhaps this is good enough for JuCo. I dunno.

[ QUOTE ]
Just because you got through college by sucking the profs dick and not writing your papers doesn't mean you have to be bitter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's bitter? Back when I was in college we didn't have computers or the Internet or TV or anything, so sometimes you just did what you had to do.

[ QUOTE ]
C'mon Ulysses can't we be civil to each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot, kettle, black, so forth.

BTW, it's Sklansky.

[jasonHoldEm]

And now for a real response...back in the day I was once an English major so I'll try to focus on your writing style.

I think you have a good idea here, but you need to tighten up your points and flesh out what is important. You seem to want to focus on the luck vs. skill element of poker, and I think you can accomplish this without needing to dive into strategic discussion concerning how to play hold'em (which IMHO takes a lot away from your essay...teach them how to play hold'em in your next essay /images/graemlins/grin.gif ).

I would start with a discussion of expected value (you could use the common coin flip example as a starting point) and then build into a general discussion of odds and pot odds.

Because you have limited space you need to hit the key points and flesh them out enough your professor (who is more interested in your writing style than your subject) will be satisfied. By fleshing out these two key areas you can show fairly succinctly that poker is a skill game.

I'd also work on your opening and closing a little...grab the reader's attention at the start, I always liked to lead with a question (ex: "Did you know you can be a consistant winner when going to a casino?"). Wrap it up with a good closing sumarizing your points and turn it in for an A.

Hope this helps,
Jason

PS- Get rid of your "sucker" references and use "discard" or "fold" instead of "muck". Good luck.

[astroglide]

perhaps he should inject some good old fashioned racism as well

[Schneids]

This was one section of a paper about music -- more specifically, a paper about the structure of music, and the many ways it is selectively chosen to enhance mood and influence peoples' thinking, where I talked about my own musical listening choices and poker. The paper has already been turned in and graded, so, I am not posting it looking for feedback:


On a different front, a second musical example I present is one that readers of this paper will probably view as me stretching the bounds of what qualifies as an acceptable encounter with music. However, I strongly believe in what I wish to say about it, and I also figure that by using this paper to further analyze, I will gain an even greater understanding of music and its role in effecting and enhancing mood. So, by doing so, it is very beneficial to my growth in musical understanding.

The topic I wish to further delve into is listening to music while playing poker.

I am a professional poker player. As in, for an extended period of time, my primary source of income comes from playing poker -- as in, I am being taxed a hefty sum for gambling winnings in 2003. I take it very seriously, and know what I'm doing, as well as much of the math behind it and everything else that is pertinent to the game, and have played thousands and thousands of table hours. I say all of this upfront, so the readers of this paper take me seriously when I say the following: I play my very best game when I am listening to one particular song, on a continuous loop. That song is, Finch's "What Is It To Burn?"

When I hear the song, I hear a massive conglomeration of every primary emotion a poker player experiences. The first thing that sticks out in the song is the constant, never-ending synthesizer-like noise that keeps drumming on, beat after beat, until finally the whole song fades to nothing. At any point in the song, I can pick out this noise from the other wave of instruments and lyrics. It makes me visualize a beating heart -- a heart that keeps beating on, through the good and bad. I think psychologically, being able to make this comparison and see this image in my head helps me keep my discipline while playing. So, when someone gets lucky and hits a 22:1 draw on me, rather than getting mad and steaming away some money on the proceeding hands, my mind keeps mellow as it focuses on the sound of the heartbeat, and I move on, much like the meticulous beating heart.

Conversely, there are moments in poker when you have to disband yourself from an emotionless, rocklike state, and let your intuition and senses take over. This doesn't mean playing with unadulterated, raw passion -- but it definitely means occasionally making bold, strong moves. Similarly, in the song, there are moments when the vocalist can be heard shouting an inaudible word that resembles "SHUT UP!" repeatedly. You can feel his emotion as he sings it, and these rare moments in the song serve as a reminder to my psyche that there are times I do have to break out of my shell and let my inner passion take over and re-raise when I sense weakness in an opponent. Poker is about making strong moves at the right moments.

Then, through much of the other portions of the song, there are two different soft chorus parts, both of which sort of feel like the 'eye before the storm' [the storm, being intense screaming]. This is like when playing poker -- and the fact that if one is correctly playing the game -- one spends more time folding and waiting for the right passion-filled moments, than doing anything else. The chorus is the patient wait. It's calm. It fills the space. It keeps us at ease and content. The chorus dynamics do feature small crescendos and diminuendos, with the diminuendos occurring as we enter them and the crescendos as we exit them, much like playing poker and winning and losing the occasional smallish pots.

Organizationally, the song bares surprising resemblance to how a Rondo piece is put together. Of the two chorus parts, one of them is undeniably repeated more frequently in the song. This is like the A-tune. The screaming is like the B-tune. The other, less prominent chorus is a C-tune. The A-tune, or, the main chorus part, is always heard before and after each of the other two parts. In all, the organization breeds familiarity for its listeners.

In all, I think "What Is It To Burn?" helps me keep my emotions in check, while still allowing them to be dynamic enough to make necessary changes so I can adapt to poker game-conditions. It is a rare song that offers the perfect mix of soothing guitar and drumming parts, lyrical sanctity, and all-out chaos to fit my specific needs. Hopefully the preceding paragraphs have expanded enough upon why I think the song effects my emotions and positively helps my poker game.

...More dribble about music, not related to poker.

[scrub]

Ok, I'm going to play this straight.

Your writing needs a lot of work. That's ok, though--that's you're taking an intro English course in the first place.

If you are serious about becoming a better writer--not just looking to get your homework proofread--you should read The Elements Of Style by William Strunk and E.B. White. TEOS is the TOP of style guides. As some other posters have noted, you organized your paper poorly. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but you might enjoy The Writer's Options: From Combining to Composing; I think it is an excellent guide to organizing your writing.

Treat writing a paper like you treat writing a post. Decide what you want to say, and try to say it as clearly and as briefly as possible.

Good luck!

scrub

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

Treat writing a paper like you treat writing a post. Decide what you want to say, and try to say it as clearly and as briefly as possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think some of the posters here, myself included, tend to neglect that "as briefly" part when we make a post. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Ulysses]

I liked it and JTrue could learn a lot by comparing the way your essay was written vs. his.

One comment about your essay and about writing or talking about poker in general to people who aren't poker players:

and hits a 22:1 draw on me, rather than getting mad and steaming away some money

"a 22:1 draw" sounds horrible to us, but to your average reader, saying something like "draws one of the only two cards in the deck that can beat me" is more effective.

"steaming away" might not be as clear a description of the emotional state to a non-poker audience as it is to us.

[Ed Miller]

you should read The Elements Of Style by William Strunk and E.B. White

This was the first book I bought after I decided to start writing seriously. I definitely recommend it.

[Ed Miller]

Ok, maybe I haven't linked those two sentences correctly, but other than that show me where else the paper doesn't flow. Just because you got through college by sucking the profs dick and not writing your papers doesn't mean you have to be bitter. C'mon Ulysses can't we be civil to each other. Oh I forgot you are the great Carpal/Tunnel so lowly posters such as myself will be criticized by you because you have superiority over me. Get a life. What happend to you when you were a child?

What was your motivation for posting your English assignments on a public forum? Were you looking for constructive criticism? If so, I'm sorry to say, but of all the responses to your post, Ulysses's was probably most accurate and insightful. If your goal was to take criticism and use it to improve your writing, you have failed.

Your writing needs a LOT of work. So much so that a quick once-over by the 2+2 crew will not scratch the surface.

[bisonbison]

Just because you got through college by sucking the profs dick and not writing your papers doesn't mean you have to be bitter

Back in my day, a blowjob might get you in a good frat or a popular seminar. Now you say it's enough to get you through four years of school?

Goddamn grade inflation.


On a technical note: your essay could use 25% more semi-colons and 10% fewer commas. Also, bet the river.

[J.A.Sucker]

I don't know why that's so funny, but it is. Thanks for making my day.

Maybe I'll go read the essay now. On second thought, no I won't, I've got to have something better to do.

[WillMagic]

I'm not sure what your assignment was here...but if I were your teacher, I would say "Thanks for the poker tutorial. Here's your D-."

This is really pretty mediocre. You are telling the reader the rules of poker. I could have read this in Hoyle.

There's no thesis here. There's nothing you are saying. Like Ulysses said, you are just stringing together random sentences about poker, with no broader point.

If you want to write a good paper about poker...you need to write about an experience...describe something that happened to you and make the reader feel like he was there. Poker can be extremely compelling literature...you only have to look at The Biggest Game in Town, Big Deal, Positively Fifth Street.

Not to be Simon Cowell or anything, but this paper is boring and awful. I could puke in pen, give it to a monkey, and come up with something more insightful. If you can play poker well, you can certainly write something better than this.

Will

[umdpoker]

i don't want to be an [censored], but ulysses is probably correct in his criticisms. you don't have to take it personally though. i really think that if you try to read your essay at a reasonable pace, you will see that it is difficult to comprehend and retain the info. as you go along. this is usually a sign of poor composition. i hate writing and reading, which is why i am an engineering major. therefore, i am not the one to help you improve your essay. also, i think it is stupid to put down somebody who is going to "juco". at least he/she is attempting to get an education. peace.

[MicroBob]

i suspect there are a few on here that overestimate their writing abilities from when they were 18 (english 101...assume college-freshman, 18 yrs. old).

my papers sucked big donkey-wienies.
i am not the greatest writer in the world now but am certainly better than i was then. and there were very instructors in high school or college who did much to help me with this.

give the kid a break.

i also have no problem with him posting the essay on the internet looking for feedback. if he got his facts wrong he wants to know about it.

that being said, it is obvious there are some structural changes that should be made to improve the paper.

if one wrote a paper on baseball they should not say,
"first you need to get 9 players for each side. the infield is in the shape of a diamond with a base on each corner. by the way, it's played with a bat and a ball. if you score more runs then the other team after 9 innings you win. "
all of these statements relate to baseball, but together they are unrelated and scattered.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
also, i think it is stupid to put down somebody who is going to "juco". at least he/she is attempting to get an education. peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. My intent was to be a dick specifically to this poster and I did not intend that slight to be of a general nature.

[JTrue]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think it is stupid to put down somebody who is going to "juco". at least he/she is attempting to get an education. peace.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree 100%. My intent was to be a dick specifically to this poster and I did not intend that slight to be of a general nature.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't understand you Ulysses, I am serious when I say you must not have any self esteem. Why must you berate me? I am curious about this.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
Back in my day, a blowjob might get you in a good frat or a popular seminar. Now you say it's enough to get you through four years of school?

Goddamn grade inflation.


On a technical note: your essay could use 25% more semi-colons and 10% fewer commas. Also, bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Best post in the thread.

scrub

[Dov]

As long as he learns, what's the difference who teaches him?

[James282]

Your writing style is all over the place. The quote from rounders in the intro needs to go. You need to decide what your essay is about. Are you writing about how hold 'em is played or the rules of hold 'em? I won't quibble with your advice(though some of it is quite bad) but the flow of this essay is off. If you are writing an instructional essay, you should exclude the rules of the game. This is congruent to writing a summary of a book or article that you are critiquing. You are writing your essay to an audience who theoretically should be familiar in your subject matter, and they presumably will know the rules of the game. If it is intended for people who have never played the game, then some of the advice you shake a stick at(like "reads") is far too advanced. This essay is very unbalanced.
-James

[James282]

Hi sucker, in any English class it is perfectly acceptable to have your essay read by other people for advice, be it stylistic, grammatical, or content-based. The only case where this is not true is if it were an "essay test" where it was explicitly stated that you should not have help from others.
-James

[bernie]

I think it's cool that you like the game enough to make you want to write about it for a school project.

You have to ask yourself, what point are you trying to get across with this essay? I didnt really find anything that might make someone who has never played/heard of the game really want to know more. It's kind of, well, sterile and boring. You can find just about every word of this in the 1st 10 pages of any beginner book. This may also be because of lack of experience in playing. Which isnt a crime, it's just i think someone with more experience would be able to draw upon lots of stories, situations and make them identifiable to an unknowledgeable reader.

Pick a premise. Take a concept that you know well and explain it. Read masons' essays or feeneys book for examples of how to do it.

It also helps to know what the grader of the paper is likely to be looking for. Format or substance. Keep in mind, many wont identify with the subject matter. So how can you make it more presentable to them?

Anyways, it's cool you're inspired. Now just channel it.

Wouldnt it be cool if your wrote a paper that made the teacher want you to stay after a bit and explain some of it more in detail because his/her interest is peaked?

Good luck...

b

[jasonHoldEm]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldnt it be cool if your wrote a paper that made the teacher want you to stay after a bit and explain some of it more in detail because his/her interest is peaked?


[/ QUOTE ]

Or gets you into "The Professors' Game"

[scrub]

You probably don't want to be catching your professor's interest: my old homegame makes the paper. (http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/03/11/arts/9908.shtml)

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand you Ulysses, I am serious when I say you must not have any self esteem. Why must you berate me? I am curious about this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You respond to a humorous post with this:

I don't need it, go speak ebonics on the Unemployment website.

You then respond to serious criticism with:

Just because you got through college by sucking the profs dick and not writing your papers doesn't mean you have to be bitter.

And then you wonder why you're being berated? Please.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]

"They don't gamble; they grind it out. Their goal is to win one big pot an hour; they get their chips in when they have the best of it, and protect them when they don't."

[/ QUOTE ]

The fact the author of this article chose to use this stupid Rounders quotes signifies all I need to know about its credibility.

[Zeno]

JTrue,

You have received various forms and types of advice on your effort. I did not read them all; I just skimmed through but wanted to emphasize two points.

Point one. Buy the book 'Elements of Style' as recommended by several people. Study it carefully.

Point two. Read. Yes Read. And then Read some more. Read well-written literature. This will probably exclude the majority of everything presented to you in school - Just about any school, anywhere. For every hour you spend writing you should spend ten reading.

I have no time to give a list of what to read aside from the following few I have gleaned at random.

One of the best writers that can say things concisely and in a forthright and engaging style is Bertrand Russell. He is no doubt absent from school reading lists and probably banned as well - all the more reason to pick up his books.

Read classical Roman and Greek literature. Cicero and Thucydides are two excellent authors you should start with.

In addition, read works by Mark Twain and H. L. Mencken. That should help round out style and tone.


Lastly, no pokerwork should be so solemn as what you presented. This will lead to the complete Sklanskyfication of poker literature - A vile and unforgivable trend that has yet to be rectified, and will probably echo down the backwaters and fetid swamps of poker writing for years to come.

Le Misanthrope

[scrub]

Yeah--I loved that. I considered writing a letter to the editor, but decided it would probably do me more harm than good... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

scrub

[scrub]

While I love Mencken as much as the next guy, he's a dangerous author to emulate for class. Particularly in today's relativistic academic environment.

However, everyone should read the WJB obituary, the essay on chiropractic, the Scopes trial coverage, and a few of the essays on Coolidge. Not necessarily because it's advisable to try to write like the man, but because his writing is a pleasure to read.

scrub

[scrub]

The sort of short-form nonfiction you're apparently supposed to be writing for this class is more journalistic than critical. Malcolm Gladwell was a science writer for the New Yorker for years, and I think he does this sort of writing about as well as anyone out there right now. You can check out an archive of his articles at his website. (http://www.gladwell.com/) I haven't read the magazine regularly since I've been at school, but I remember the article on malaria eradication being excellent.

As long as we're on the subject of American writers with fantastic and unique style, let's not forget Raymond Chandler.

I'm a sucker for Ray Bradbury and some of the W.P. Kinsella stuff too.

Heck, let's even throw in Tom Wolfe while we're at it. He may not be the most mature novelist we've got, but he was certainly a very strong practictioner of the long-form magazine profile.

Oh, and Ring Lardner.

I'd better stop and get back to my problem set, but there's a lot of wonderful stuff out there.

scrub

[uuDevil]

Jason,

Your best writing in this thread is in your responses to Ulysses. Why is that? Passion. Anger. The desire to make your point and leave no doubt. Put that kind of focus into your essay and it will be much better.

[my essay]
Each of your paragraphs should be like your response to Ulysses in that you present an idea, e.g. "I am pissed off!" and then clarify or elaborate on that idea with a verbal punch, punch, punch.

A paragraph should be like a hand of poker. Each round of betting is a sentence. The action on the flop follows from what happened before the flop, and influences what will happen on the turn and then the river. For instance: you are dealt AA on the button. How is this paragraph going to go?

You want to make a strong opening statement: Raise! If you are bet into on the flop are you going to insert an unrelated thought (meekly call)? No, that doesn't make sense, you want to keep the train of thought: Raise! On the turn your reader should be anticipating what will come next, don't disappoint: When it is checked to you, bet. At the end, you don't want to leave the reader feeling that you didn't make your point (you checked it down). Squeeze out the maximum profit: Bet the river.

Getting the idea? Now how do you put your paragraphs together?

Your essay should be like a poker session. When you sit down, you have a clear goal. The sequence of hands follows an unrelentingly logical strategy. Tight. Aggressive. Efficient. Maximum EV. At the end, everything makes sense. You walk away a winner. So does the reader.

You've gotten some harsh criticism here. I'm sure it smarts. Writing, like poker, is not for the faint of heart.
[/end my essay]

Here's a joke to cheer you up:

Why did the poker player cross the street?
He couldn't get his d**k out of the chicken.

(Ok, so now it looks like I gotta work on my game AND my writing! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

--uuDevil

[scrub]

I was wondering when the inevitable extended poker analogy was going to appear. I valiantly fought temptation myself... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

scrub

[superleeds]

[J.A.Sucker]

If your CONTENT is changed due to the input of others, I think you should reference them. This is acceptable academic practice, and I would accept it from my students (and have in the past). Here, I think the dude just wants us to do his homework for him, since he can't write. This is not how one learns, and you know this.

[daryn]

who is this clown? he even misquotes rounders. it's amazing how many people hear that line in rounders and think he's talking about winning "one big pot an hour" when he's really talking about "one big bet an hour"

[Ed Miller]

who is this clown? he even misquotes rounders. it's amazing how many people hear that line in rounders and think he's talking about winning "one big pot an hour" when he's really talking about "one big bet an hour"

I too find it shocking that someone quoted in a college newspaper would err. Almost everyone I talk to about poker displays a thorough knowledge of the game and regularly offers pithy and insightful commentary. Shame on this reporter for managing to find the one guy who doesn't know what he's talking about!

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
who is this clown? he even misquotes rounders. it's amazing how many people hear that line in rounders and think he's talking about winning "one big pot an hour" when he's really talking about "one big bet an hour"

[/ QUOTE ]

In Rounders he does actually say "one big pot an hour".

[Warik]

[ QUOTE ]
In Rounders he does actually say "one big pot an hour".

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, he says "one big bet every half hour."

[jdl22]

Unless I'm hearing it wrong he says "one big bet." Just checked it again.

[scrub]

While it's not entirely clear who supplied the Rounders quote, the alleged source for most of the numbers about the "legendary" 5/10 dealer's choice game was an independently wealthy kid with a blackjack habit and a predeliction for coldcalling.

I miss that game....

scrub

[Gildersneeze]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, read works by Mark Twain and H. L. Mencken. That should help round out style and tone.

[/ QUOTE ]Plus, Mencken is just so damned quotable! "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." So true, so true. Take this cold run of cards I've been on lately; It's the sort of cold run where you can't seem to catch good cards, or when you do, you just constantly get sucked out on over and over. Black flags and slitting throats gets SORELY tempting after four weeks of icy decks.

Regardless, JTrue, apart from your other glaring affronteries to concepts such as "composition" and "using the English Language to convey thoughts and ideas in a concise and intelligible manner," you should perhaps consider using one hell of a lot less jargon.

If you expect someone who has never sat at a poker table before to know what "UTG," "UTG+1," "CO," "BB," "SB," "Button," "limp," "call," or "complete" mean without a detailed description of each, you're off your chutney by a longshot.

For "UTG calls," try "the player to the left of the big blind, in the position also known as 'Under The Gun (UTG),' calls, or matches, the amount of the Big Blind's forced wager." If you're to use an acronym for a term that you plan to use throughout a document, ESPECIALLY a term that one unfamiliar with the subject matter would be rendered clueless as toward what it could possibly stand for and mean, then you MUST spell it word for word, then give the acronym in parenthesis, and either before or after giving the full name and parenthetically remarked acronym, you must define what exactly that term means.

If you never played poker, particularly Texas Hold'em before, would you understand someone that said, "so I picked up red rockets down in the small blind. Under The Gun mucks 'em and UTG+1 limps, that starts a limpfest to the cut-off who raises. The Button faced with two cold tosses 'em and I three-bet. Folds around to the cut-off who caps it. I call and it's two to the flop. The flop misses my rockets. Three Spades, all Broadway, no ace. I check the action to the cut-off who bets it right out with no hesitation. He's representing the flush, and I know that if the Ace of spades falls, my trips would be counterfeited to any spade, and the ten makes the Royal. At best, I'm drawing to almost no clean outs, the offsuit ace and the board pairing. Reluctantly, I have to muck the bullets. That's poker."? I highly doubt you would.

Think about this. Also, try to track down the essay "How to Say Nothing in 500 Words." The author's name escapes me, but I think you'd benefit heavily from reading it.

[scrub]

How to say nothing in 500 words. (http://www3.baylor.edu/~Jesse_Airaudi/nothingwords.html)

It was cute--got a kick out of it.

I've really got to finish my damned thesis so that I stop posting on twoplustwo so much...

scrub

[AJo Go All In]

a perfect opportunity to be a complete dick, and i missed the boat. oh well, good job ulysses.

[daryn]

nice, my memory serves me well.

[James282]

Are you an English teacher too, Sucker? I thought I was the only poker playing English teacher! /images/graemlins/smile.gif Learning does take place through constructive criticism, but I would only expect him to cite somebody if he was quoting them. When my students come to me for help, I don't make them cite me in their papers.
-James

[Gildersneeze]

I'm the son of one and the grandson of two (mother and both grandmothers), and if I had any desire to teach the horrendous spoiled brats and thug-life wannabes that I went to high school with I'd probably teach English for a living; does that count? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[wrongpond]

Dude, damn good essay, but two things I'd alter for the purposes of being clear to the totally new to the game; explain what "the cards should be MUCKED means," and in the last section when your explaining odds calculation using the 6-7-8-9 example you only mention the 8-9 on the flop, and this might confuse some people if you don't include the third card, which for your purposes is just a rag, but might confuse someone as to how many cards are revealed on the flop, again damn good essay,


Jeremiah

[deacsoft]

Man.. I'm going to do this and try my hardest not to come off like a dick. So, I'll start by saying that you picked a very difficult topic to write an essay on, and I don't know if there is a good way to write one. You picked something that it sounds like you love, and that's great, but there is so much to poker that it takes books to cover it... not essays.

I know this is a rough draft, but it is the single worst piece of writing I've ever seen. It does look like a 3rd grader wrote it, and if I was a 3rd grade english teacher I would give this a failing grade. Some of the concepts are solid but the supporting subject matter (if there is any at all) is horrible. The gramer is way off, and there is no structure at all. There are run on sentences, dangling modifiers, and a ton of incomplete thoughts and unexplained terms. Worst of all, much of what you describe is either incomplete or wrong all together. I'd like to go more in to detail but I filled 2.5 note book pages with corrections just while reading through it the first time.

I want you to do well, and I wish to help, so this is my offer... If you'd like I will rewrite a more suitable version of this essay for you to look over. I'll use all your concepts and ideas and try to structure it in a similar fashion. This would not be for you to turn in. It would be a way of "teaching by example" or something along those lines. I hope it's not to late.

If not... I advise you to pay a lot more attention in class, because no english teacher is that bad. You seem to have learned little in the ways of proper english and how to write an essay.

[sucka]

Pretty funny that poker is actually a topic that a kid would use to write an essay on in college.

Sign of the times I guess...

[wrongpond]

This thread has alot to offer on the subject of communication. Jtrue posted an essay on poker with a headliner asking for helpful advice and opinions of his paper. He got little helpful advice, and alot of pretty destructive criticism, but people sure communicated. Some communicated their extreme distaste for his work, and after Jtrue responded to their criticism some even communicated their extreme ditaste for him. I think however that most of what was said was unnecessarily mean or hostile, and this, to me, does not help a forum. I think that 1.)this contributes to animosity between all 2.)it makes those who are new to the game and the forum feel intimidated by posting, for fear of a lashing like people handed this dude 3.)a good majority of you would not say these things to this guys face, some would not have the balls and some would just have the brains to understand that politics control a lot of aspects of life and using them well is never a waste of time or energy

[scrub]

To be honest, I think he got a lot of helpful advice.

The best part is that he got advice that will, if he puts in the work, actually help him become a better writer. Since the only way to approach an essay that flawed is to completely rewrite it, any help aimed at improving the essay would just have been academic dishonesty. Instead of helping him cheat, a number of posters pointed him towards some strong resources to help him improve his writing.

I think it's sort of neat that he was able to post on a gambling bulliten board and get pointed towards Strunk and White, et al.

scrub

[wrongpond]

Ok, I'll agree that he did get some good advice. I think though, that a fair amount of the advice he got was so laden with put-downs and slams, that he would have trouble seeing what's actually good advice, unless, he can take things with a pretty big grain of salt. From his replies to others replies I don't think that's the case.

[astroglide]

he greeted a harmless joke with a racist attack

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
he greeted a harmless joke with a racist attack

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Did I miss something. I read this whole thread and didn't see any racist attack whatsoever. I interpreted the comment about the unemployment line as a shot at Ulysses as an individual. Where is this so called "racist attack"?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
Man.. I'm going to do this and try my hardest not to come off like a dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

A worthy goal.

[ QUOTE ]
I know this is a rough draft, but it is the single worst piece of writing I've ever seen. It does look like a 3rd grader wrote it, and if I was a 3rd grade english teacher I would give this a failing grade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, so much for that. At least you tried.

[WillMagic]

Honestly, what good things can you say about that essay? It's awful! I mean, really truly awful! I'm very glad that this forum isn't like an elementary school teacher. We tell it like it is.

I think it was good for JTrue to really hear how bad his essay was. If he wants to be a good writer...well, you can't get to where you want to be if you don't know where you are.

Will

[astroglide]

the implication that people speak ebonics in unemployment lines. it's pretty clear.

[blackaces13]

That's not how I saw it at all. Just seems like a shot at Ulysses as an individual as I said. Anyway, how can you say that JT is racist for his response and not say a thing about the entire post by Ulysses which is basically making a mockery of the way some black people speak ala Amos and Andy? Personally, I don't have a problem with either post and I think people are way to quick to scream racism in our society. Seems to me you're way off base here.

[astroglide]

my response and (presumably ulysses') was piped through online translation engines. that type of language does exist and the world, and it is incorrect english. i'm sure it was given, as mine was, to indicate that the original poster did not appear to have a strong grasp of the english language. the poster responded and took it upon himself to indicate (not at all unclear) that people spoke ebonics in unemployment lines, which is to say that black people make up the majority of the unemployed.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]
which is to say that black people make up the majority of the unemployed.


[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure that this is racist. that is, either it's true or it's false, and i'm sure there are statistics which could provide us the answer one way or another.

now, if he said that black people are on the unemployment lines because they are stupider than white people, then yeah, that would be racist.

[Gildersneeze]

Being a person who is not only overly critical of gross misuses of the English Language, but also blunt to the point of brutality, if JTrue handed me this paper in person for me to read and give advice upon, immediately after reading it I'd advise him to shoot it, burn it, bury it, nuke the burial site from orbit (it's the only way to be sure), and deny its very existence until the universe collapsed upon itself.

Honestly, a paper of this caliber shouldn't get a C- in a public Junior High School, let alone even a D- in a Freshman English course. It's just THAT bad.

Oh well. Sometimes I just can't understand how someone, unless mentally handicapped in a pretty severe way, could fail to learn how to properly write and communicate in their NATIVE F*CKING LANGUAGE. God forbid someone apparently born and raised in an English speaking country learn English! Poor guy, we should all give him our sympathy for making it all the way to college while not bothering to figure out all but the most basic written communication skills!

Sheesh. Every day I meet or speak with people who wonder why our country brings to mind an image of blithering idiots that hardly evolved past the early simian state with barely any clue about anything that's not ten feet in front of our faces. I just shrug my shoulders now. I'm tired of asking them if they have a few hours to kill.

[OnlinePokerCoach]

I only scanned this poster's essay, but even from the brief scan, the comments that rolled through my head echoed your's.

I agree entirely.

Cheers,
OnlinePokerCoach.com

[Diplomat]

[ QUOTE ]


i'm not sure that this is racist. that is, either it's true or it's false, and i'm sure there are statistics which could provide us the answer one way or another.

now, if he said that black people are on the unemployment lines because they are stupider than white people, then yeah, that would be racist.



[/ QUOTE ]

By linking Ulysses to stupidity (only way he got through school was blowjobs, etc.), then linking that to ebonics in the unemployment line, the connection is pretty clear.

Instead of just calling Ulysses an A**hole, he made a derogatory comment connected to a social condition. It's about as racist as telling someone to go back to Africa.

-Diplomat

[Homer]

The gramer is way off

[deacsoft]

Yeah maybe that was a little harsh... but at least I offered to help the kid out. And since when is being totally honest such a bad thing. If anyone read that essay and wasn't thinking the same things I was; they need to go back to 8th grade and retake English. Just the facts guys... just the facts.

[deacsoft]

*grammar /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I incorrectly spelled it too. Looks like I need a little refresher on my spelling. Spell Check is spoiling me.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
people spoke ebonics in unemployment lines, which is to say that black people make up the majority of the unemployed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough, this is the only truly racist statement made in this thread. Black people aren't the only ones that speak in "ebonics." Where I'm from, at least an equal percentage of blacks and whites speak this way. You have white kids who ride in their minivans with mom to Giant to pick up groceries who say "yo" and call things "phat" while 50 Cent plays in the background. On another note, most of the black people that I am good friends with hardly ever speak this way at all, especially not the one who is the son of a dean at Columbia University.

I would suggest that people who largely speak in ebonics will wind up on the unemployment line more than people who do not, simply because most employers favor candidates who can communicate well. People who speak [strictly] in ebonics also tend to be less educated.

You run into a problem when you start correlating "black" with "ebonics," just like you run into a problem correlating blacks with rap music or basketball or any other of the stereotypic associations the media chooses to glorify. The sad thing about racism in America is that lots of times people don't even know that they are racists --- and I'm not talking about "dangerous" racists --- I'm talking about people who have made these sorts of assumptions and connections and don't even consider them to be a problem.

Wow I didn't mean for a long post, I just happen to be writing a criticism of Spike Lee's Bamboozled that deals with these exact sorts of things. It should be published in about 3-6 months, but if you want a copy, I can send it to you /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[astroglide]

ebonics (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ebonics): See African American Vernacular English. See Usage Note at Black English.

African-American Vernacular English (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=African%20American%20Vernacular%20English ): Any of the nonstandard varieties of English spoken by African Americans. Also called Black English, Black English Vernacular, Black Vernacular English, Ebonics. See Usage Note at Black English.

Black English (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Black%20English): Any of the nonstandard varieties of English spoken by Black people throughout the world.
Usage Note: In the United States, the term Black English usually refers to the everyday spoken varieties of English used by African Americans, especially of the working class in urban neighborhoods or rural communities. Linguists generally prefer the term African American Vernacular English, although some use the term Ebonics, which saw widespread use in the late 1990s. It is an error to suppose that Black English is spoken by all African Americans regardless of their background. In fact, the English spoken by African Americans is highly variedas varied as the English spoken by any other racial or ethnic group. ·Sometimes Black English is used to refer to other varieties of English spoken by Black people outside of the United States, as in the Caribbean and the United Kingdom.

the term was coined by george washington university's professor robert williams, an afrocentrist. you are a tool. what do you think the "ebon" prefix implies?

[James282]

Hey astroglide, I understand the origins of Ebonics, trust me(although I use the Oxford English Dictionary, and not Dictionary.com, but thanks for the links). I don't care what "dictionary.com" says the defintion of "black english" is. Do you understand why calling something "Black" English and describing it as "non-standard ways in which black people speak" is racist as hell? Are you so out of touch that you think that only black people speak this way in America today? If white people speak this way too, is it still black English? Should we expect that if we hear someone speaking this way, that they are black?

Using the word "ebonics" the way it was first defined in 1973 is simply ignorant and it ignores the way it is used in America. Assuming that because someone speaks in ebonics they must be black is a racist thing to say, and while I'm not surprised that you don't understand why I say this, it is disheartening to see yet another example of someone taking a particular representation of race and internalizing it as authentic.

Black people aren't the only people who speak ebonics.
-James

P.S. - I particularly enjoyed being called a "tool" for having a different opinion than you, it really added steam to your argument.

[TheGrifter]

Alright, I'm gonna avoid attacking you and try to provide some advice that will help you to write a better paper. I'm not an english teacher or even an english major so take this for what it is worth. First of all, what you've posted here sucks. That's okay, 90% of the papers that are generated in an english 101 class are pathetic.

What you're trying to do is right an argumentative essay regarding poker. The first thing you need to do is decide exactly what the focus of your argument is going to be. Develope a thesis statement and build your paper around it. Your basic argument seems to be that poker is a beatable skill game. Avoid spending too much time explaining the rules and try to make your arguments more concise.

After the introductory paragraph, which should include your thesis, introduce your arguments. This is called the proposition section and it provides you with an opportunity to make very direct statements supporting your argument.

Next, you should provide evidence to support your proposition. This is called the proof section. Here you could include statements from noted poker players, or perhaps provide examples of famous, long-term winners.

Following this you should provide a refutation of opposing arguments. You will temporarily take the viewpoint of those who believe that poker is pure luck and then provide direct refutation of this position.

Finally, having proven your argument and refuted naysayers, close strong with a recap that closely resembles the introduction. Throw in a quote if you like (but not from rounders) and I think you'll be okay.

Remember to start with an outline. List your thesis, your specific arguments, your evidence and the points you wish to refute. After that, the paper will almost write itself.

I hope this advice is helpful in addition to what others have stated. I encourage you to post the revised paper for additional comments. Good luck.

[astroglide]

it's not an argument, it's fact; he made a clearly racist comment, and i did not. for all of your wordiness, you seem unable to distinguish between individual pieces of slang and entire dialects.

[James282]

What is a fact, that peoplpe who are in unemployment lines speaking Ebonics are automatically black?
-James

[astroglide]

it is absolutely reasonable to assume that a majority of them are, and it is 100% obvious that it was jtrue's racist implication. inclusion of the word "yo" in one's vocabulary does not mean that a person is speaking ebonics. am i speaking french if i use the word "rendezvous"?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
it is absolutely reasonable to assume...

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess this is where the difference in our opinion lies. It is not "absolutely reasonable" to "assume" anything about someone's skin color based on anything besides their skin color(or maybe their hair texture).

If I said that someone walked into a deli I was at today wearing baggy jeans, G-Unit sneakers, a backwards throwback Braves hat, and a throwback Denver Nuggets Jersey that was 4 sizes too large, are there any "absolutely reasonable assumptions" that one could make about this person's race? I suggest that the answer is no, but the television, music, and movie industries probably suggest something else, and maybe you do, too.

Since you were so kind as to go to Dictionary.com to define some words for me, I'll do the same for you...but this is a definition from the Oxford English Dictionary:

[ QUOTE ]
racism:
a. The theory that distinctive human characteristics and abilities are determined by race

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm not mistaken, you are saying that speaking in Ebonics is a way to distinguish someone as black, no?
-James

[astroglide]

it's not unexpected that you left out the most relevant and common definition of racism: Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

i think it is beyond debate that the majority of people who speak ebonics are black. unless somebody specifies the minority of people who speak it (which is much smaller than you account for as you seem to think use of the term "yo" is full-blown ebonics), it is absolutely correct to assume they are speaking about the majority.

this is really simple, and you are being extremely stupid.

1: jtrue made a post using horrible english

2: i responded jokingly by piping it through multiple language translators to imply how incomprehensible it was

3: ulysses responded, again jokingly, by piping it through another translator for jive/ebonics

4: jtrue responded by clearly implying that the majority of people in unemployment lines speak ebonics

it is a well-understood fact that black people speak ebonics more often than anyone, so anybody over the age of 14 should be able to determine that it was infact a pointed, racist statement. if you would like to not only prove that it wasn't a racist statement, and that it was somehow a sociological/economic commentary with no relevance to the conversation (and speaking about the MINORITY of the people who speak ebonics) you can feel free to do it but i'm done wasting my time considering any of this. you are a troll and an idiot.

[James282]

His post was in bad english, and your response and Ulysses' were funny. He said, if you want to speak Ebonics go to the unemployment lines. He implied that people who speak improper English are more likely to be unemployed than people who do. The way JTrue invoked the term ebonics was the same way that the translator Ulysses used did - simply bad speech littered with curses and slang. The way ebonics was first considered(as you appear to be an expert on it) it did not contain words like "Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet" or translating "advice" to "dear abby." I never suggested that using "yo" was full-blown ebonics, but I don't believe what Ulysses wrote was exactly ebonics either. JTrue was referencing Ulysses' post, and whether he has a misunderstanding of what true ebonics is is irrelevant. Jtrue's statement can be translated to say, "If you want to speak [in the way you did] go to the unemployment lines." You then assumed that all people who spoke this way are black, this simply isn't true. You go forth to assume about majorities and so forth without any facts, just a "general understanding." I am not here to debate majorities and minorities when it comes to people who speak this way, as neither one of us has any sort of realistic idea as to what the exact numbers are. You equated people who speak ebonics to people who are black, and this equation is simply NOT as absolute as you make it out to be.

You started your post by, once again, referencing dictionary.com and saying it's the most "relevant and common definition," when in fact, even there it is the second definition. The Oxford English Dictionary does not include this definition at all, so I did not omit it intentionally --- I simply use the overwhelmingly accepted authority on the English language, so don't think I was providing a progandist definition.

You once again concluded your post by calling me names. Now we're up to "tool," "troll and idiot." You go around trying to push people around on these boards and establish yourself as an absolute authority wherever you go...you came into this post trying to attack a poster as a racist when, regardless of whether he is or not, you clearly established yourself as one as well.

Human beings can't be thought of in the same way you think of poker odds. You can't just make assumptions about how people act based on race, whether you believe it is true the majority of the time or not. You also can't win arguments by calling people names or making personal attacks.
-James

[astroglide]

You then assumed that all people who spoke [ebonics] are black, this simply isn't true.

it is absolute fact that the majority of people who speak ebonics are black. he did not establish that he was referring to the non-black minority of people who speak it, so it is certainly correct to assume that he is speaking about the majority. i did nothing to imply that all people that speak ebonics are black or indicate that i am a racist.

the mistake you continue to make is that there is even an argument to be held. i called you names for amusement, not to win anything. you are a pedantic moron, jtrue made a racist comment, and i did not.

[James282]

Have you ever lived in an area where the majority of people were black and actually had a lot of interraction with them? I guess I don't really need to ask that question, because I pretty much already know the answer. You're right, there is no argument to be held.

You can call me a pedant all you want, but you are one of the most condescending and narrow minded people on this forum --- and you're not even funny about it. At least most of the condescending people around here are amusing.
-James

[James282]

I was reading through some of my research a second ago, which actually related to this topic. This statement renders JTrue's statement pretty much completely unracist.

Ebonics is...
[ QUOTE ]
so different from standard English that teachers often can't understand what they are saying. Such children perform poorly in school and typically fail to acquire the ways of speaking that they'll need in order to succeed in the world outside their neighborhoods. Schools have traditionally treated the speech of these children as simply sloppy and wrong, not as evidencing skills and knowledge the children can build on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like these people will end up in the unemployment line, huh?

[astroglide]

i am flattered by your zeal to prove me wrong at something and i can virtually assure you that you will be given the opportunity sometime, but i don't think it's going to happen right here. as for your question, the answer is yes - i grew up in the poorer areas of north saint louis in majority black areas.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
am flattered by your zeal to prove me wrong at something and i can virtually assure you that you will be given the opportunity sometime, but i don't think it's going to happen right here

[/ QUOTE ]

My sentiments exactly. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
-James

[astroglide]

i don't have a boner to prove you wrong. i was discussing things in this thread independent of you, and you jumped in with your own agenda.

[Dylan Wade]

I think the bottom line is, who gives a [censored]?