what to look for in opponents tendencies

[bmedwar]

playing 3/6 holdem on party. Can anyone give me a shortlist a specific things to look for in opponents. I always see statements like "play the opponent not the cards, or "your play will vary widely based on your opponent". But I have never seen anyone give specifics on what to look for. Especially online where players are leaving/joining the table quickly and I'll probably never see them again. Is it possible to notice tendencies in a dozen or so hands and then exploit them over an hour session? I'd guess that I should be looking for weak players. What complicates this is the fact that you hardly ever see the opponents cards. So am I looking at percentages that they bet/raise/call/check/flop in certain situations? The sample over an hour session wouldn't be significant. And if they don't show their cards, I can't tell if they were loose-calling with a gutshot draw or correctly calling with a flush draw. Can anyone give me specific things to look for to identify holes and how to exploit them (within an hour-long session). Instead I have been forming an idea in my head of the typical 3/6 party player, and I base my decisions against that model. For instance, if I was to play 2/4 or 5/10, I'd adjust that model.

[jasonHoldEm]

habitual coldcallers

(short enough? /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[bmedwar]

certainly not what I expected to be the #1 thing to look for. very interesting. so I'd guess the best way to suck money out of a habitual preflop coldcaller is to raise in front of them with group 1 and group 2 hands. Then play aggressively after the flop. Is there anyother way to take advantage of them?

[LetsRock]

Things I look for at a table of unknowns:

- Are they in a lot of hands (4 hands an orbit)?
No - they're probably pretty tight - only playing premium hands.
Yes - they're probably pretty loose (or they may just be getting incredible cards).

- Do they raise frequently?
No- They're calling stations (weak) and if they do raise, it probably means bad things for you.
Yes - They're very aggressive and their raises may mean absolutely nothing. They're harder to read, but they may tend to overplay their cards which can be good for you if you hit a hand.

-Will they let go of a hand they've been pushing?
No- Maniac/calling station and you can't buy this guy out of a hand. You need the best hand (not necessarily premium) to take a pot away.
Yes - You might be able to buy pots from this guy. Steal his blinds but beware when he doesn't go away.

Does he post (first hand) in a really early position?
No- He's a least a little smarter than your avg. bear.
Yes - Can't wait (even one hand!) to get in the action. Probably pretty loose.

How much does bring to the table?
Min? - Probably not gonna be here long - you hope he catches a few pots (from other players of course) so you can relieve him of his newfound BR.
Avg? - Not much read on this.
Above Avg? - If it's a round number (like 2X the "norm"), he probably made a decision on how much to bring to the table and probably has a much bigger BR to back it up. Probably a little better than the avg. bear.
Overkill? - Either drags his whole BR from game to game (which means he's not really thinking about it) or he's hoping to intimidate all the avg. stacks with his fort knox showing. Probably pretty agressive, but I've seen some that come in with 100 times a reasonable buy-in and rock-up.
(BR "tells" are very limited in value, but it may give you somewhere to build from.)

If you don't get to see a lot of their cards, you can only go by their apparent "standards". Once you start to see some of their cards you can refine your read - little by little (I love the fools that show every single hand they can /images/graemlins/cool.gif)

[coach]

good post thanks

[tpir90036]

what "group" your hand is in has nothing to do with it. the fact that they are loose makes it more likely you have them dominated....but you make the majority of your money *after* the flop....

if they call a lot, they are most likely incorrectly chasing or calling down with any piece of the flop in the hopes that they catch or are ahead. therefore you bet your made hands more strongly against them and bluff/semi-bluff less since they are might call you down with bottom pair.

[jasonHoldEm]

I didn't mean to imply that it's necessarily the number one thing to look for, but it's the easiest thing to spot and if they are doing it habitually it is the sign of a (very) weak player...conversely, you don't want to bluff these sort of players because they will probably call you down (but you should value bet moderate holdings as they will pay you off)...the ideal player is the sort who is willing to put in a lot of money before the flop but then gets out of the hand when he misses.

I think Let's rock summed it up pretty well, I was sorta being a smarta$$. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Jason

EDITED TO ADD: If you don't already own it check out Psychology of Poker, it's an excellent book for determining what type of player you're up against, how they think, and how to play against them...probably exactly what you're looking for although it's not a strategy book, per se.

[tpir90036]

to add some things to jason and letsrock's good list:

betting patterns:
- do they only bet out with top pair?
- do they always raise with top pair if someone bets into them?
- do they always check-raise with top pair from EP?
- do they check-raise at all?!?
- do they always raise their draws in late position?
- what does it mean when they 3-bet/cap (pre or post-flop)?
- do they only raise the turn/river with the nuts?
- do they ever semi-bluff raise the turn?

lots of players fall into patterns with the way they play hands...it's difficult to put horrible players on an exact holding since they might play top pair with AK the same way they play top pair with 74.... but knowing how they play certain situations and what their overall tendencies are will help you know "where you are at" in a hand with relative ease.

[Styles]

the first thing I do when I sit down is read the notes I have on the players at the table.

I also like to look at buy-in. Good guidelines were given here.

Blind Defenses and Cold Calls say alot.

[JTrue]

Thats a good question

[LetsRock]

This is stuff I add as it becomes available. The question, was trying to get a quick read on an unknown player. It can take several sessions to get even close to the detail that you're talking about.

It's kind of hard to get an "always" type of read in 2 or 3 orbits.

Besides, I tend to not use the word "always". "Typical", "regularly", "often", "usually", "sometimes", "rarely" - but I don't lock into "never" or "always".

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to notice tendencies in a dozen or so hands and then exploit them over an hour session?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easily, Yes. But you have to be able to adjust your reads as the session goes on.

[ QUOTE ]
What complicates this is the fact that you hardly ever see the opponents cards.

The sample over an hour session wouldn't be significant. And if they don't show their cards, I can't tell if they were loose-calling with a gutshot draw or correctly calling with a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're in a game with few showdowns, find another game. If there are showdowns, you should be able to peg a player.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead I have been forming an idea in my head of the typical 3/6 party player, and I base my decisions against that model.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good start. Remember to adjust certain ways to accomodate how he may deviate from your model.

Last thing, use 'types' of hands they bet/call with. Know the common plays that they may be using. Looks like you're doing this a little.

One more, i mentioned it above. If you're in a game with few showdowns, find another game.

b

[AceHigh]

Good post.

I think you missed an important one - what hands have they showndown?

[bdk3clash]

In my pre-hold'em days, the first poker book I read was "The Complete Course to Winning 7 Card Stud" by Roy West. (Which, by the was, is an excellent book--probably the 7 stud equivalent to Lee Jones's "Winning Low Limit Hold'em.")

Anyway, one of the points he stresses early on is that there is no substitute for knowledge of your opponents. After a few years of playing poker (mainly hold'em for the last two or so), his advice rings true.

In terms of the games at Party, PokerTracker and its notes export tool is truly invaluable. It doesn't really result in basic strategy changes per se, but for the marginal situations that come up, it helps make decisions such as "raise or call?" or "call or fold?" a little easier, and more accurate.

Example:

Party 1-2. I raise two or three limpers out of the big blind with JJ. The flop is 10-10-x, where x is less than 10. I bet out, one of the limpers raises.

My notes on this player indicate that he is insanely tight. Over a few hundred hands, then only ones he raised preflop were AA, KK, QQ, and AK. His flop play was similiarly tight.

It's rare I ever, ever fold an overpair on the flop, especially for one more bet, but I did this time. He went to war with someone else on the turn, and had A-10 for flopped trips. Against other players, I stick around, because there's a range of hands they could be raising there with, but it was pretty clear this guy had trips.

Another example: I hold AJo in the BB. Another incredibly tight player raises from LMP. I fold. I'll never know what he had, but it's a decent bet he had me beat/dominated preflop, and the reverse-implied odds made this a pretty clear fold.

It's stuff like this that notes help with. Aside from the actual PokerTrackers stats I keep on players, I also make manual notes, such as "raise EP 88" or "bluff/semibluff turn flush draw." It doesn't seem like much at the time, but the edges add up.

[Sarge85]

Theres a truckload of info already in this post, so I'm not sure I can add anything that hasn't been said already.

However I can suggest that maybe you pick up John Feeney's Book - Inside the Poker Mind.

There's a chapater called "Quick Indicators" that pretty much covers what your lookig for - I've done a quick glance of this post (before I added it to My Favorites, for more in depth study) and it looks like alot of what the book cited, is covered here, but the book may go a little deeper.

GL

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[sublime]

I am going to be starting to use pokertracker, these tendancies you are describing, you have to find them yourself?

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
I am going to be starting to use pokertracker, these tendancies you are describing, you have to find them yourself?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerTracker compiles pretty much any statistic you can think of on all your opponents. You can export any of these statistics to your PartyPoker notes file, so the information shows up when you look at their notes at the tables.

Even having very basic information like "VP$IP" (the percentage of the time a player voluntarily puts money in the pot preflop) and "PFR" (the percentage of the time a player raises preflop) allows you to get a good idea of what type of player someone is. There are tons of other statistics available, but these are the ones i mainly use to figure out where a player falls on the loose/tight and passive/aggressive spectrums.

[pokeryogi]

At party, if a player calls on the river then folds to the winner, you can still find out what there hand was by hitting the previous hand in the upper right hand corner. This will allow you to see more of the types of hands they play.