The FishyWhale Strikes Back! (long)

Just returned home from a fabulous $3/6 session: +$134 in 3.25 hours!


My opponents were of the dream constellation: loose-passive before the flop, and pretty quick to discard afterwards. Only one guy who posed some problems in the way of trickyness.


Four hands (so as not to have Dynasty give me reprimands for posting too many ;-)):


1) I call $3 on the cutoff or button with A8o and 5 opponents see the flop.


It gets checked through on flop and turn (I did not bet because there were way to many straight and flush cards out there and also because I wanted to build up a tight image and use it later on).


River: 9h7hKc,X,Kd. The player I described as the only guy who was somewhat tricky bet out and I knew that he could never ever have a king, but also that he wouldn´t bet a seven here. I really thought about calling him down with my ace high, but then I looked at the tiny pot and the three players coming after me and folded like the rest. Bettor showed Q high. Would you call here?


2) I have red jacks in late middle position, one or two callers to me, I raise, cutoff reraises, two callers, I cap (also so as not to say by just calling: "No, I don´t have AA or KK"). Three opponents left.


Flop: QdTdXs. Everyone checks to me, I bet, cutoff only calls, other two call too.


Turn: blank. Check to me, I bet, cutoff calls, one other guy calls.


River: blank. It gets checked through and I win the pot. (Cutoff most likely had AKo/s, perhaps AJs). Anyone play it differently?


3) By now I had amassed quite a bit of dough and people really respected me as the last hand will show. I called with 8s7s utg+1 after utg had called, and a guy who I know has also read HPFAP who sat down recently mucks and talks to the semi-tricky guy and I know they talk about me and it is possible that he folded because "I" am in the pot. 5 opponents see the flop.


Flop QsQh7d. I bet... Everyone folds! LOL!


4) Last hand: KcQc in BB and only three or four players have called. I call too to prevent it from becoming a shootout.


Flop: AdKdTs. I bet, worst player (poker police -complainer) calls, rest fold.


Turn: Kh. I bet, he calls.


River: Js. I bet, he calls.


I win, he had AJ.


Question: Would you have raised preflop with KQs?

>1) I call $3 on the cutoff or button with A8o

>and 5 opponents see the flop.


Well, I need AJ min to call in this spot.


>It gets checked through on flop and turn


Fine.


>River: 9h7hKc,X,Kd. The player I described as

>the only guy who was somewhat tricky bet out ...

>Would you call here?


In a small pot, the first bet often takes it. There's a reason for that, and you're right not to call.


>2) I have red jacks in late middle position, one

>or two callers to me, I raise, cutoff reraises,

>two callers, I cap (also so as not to say by

>just calling: "No, I don´t have AA or KK").

>Three opponents left.


I doubt you're causing enough confusion in people's minds that it's worth it for you to 4-bet in a spot where you may well be beat.


Are you sure it's not your ego doing the betting here? A lot of players will overplay their hands because they're in denial that a better hand may be out there. It's like they just feel so unlucky that it's happening that it just can't be so they start raising with the worst of it.


>Flop: QdTdXs. Everyone checks to me, I bet,

>cutoff only calls, other two call too.


It's a sign to me that the cutoff doesn't really know what he's doing. There's the small possibility that he has the AK with a running diamond draw and wants to take one off to see if the diamonds may come in (and will fold the turn should he not hit). Otherwise, an AK should raise or fold now. I would lean towards folding with AK in the face of your bet on the flop with players still to act behind.


>Turn: blank. Check to me, I bet, cutoff calls,

>one other guy calls.


I would fear that the cutoff has AQs at this point.


>River: blank. It gets checked through and I win

>the pot. (Cutoff most likely had AKo/s, perhaps

>AJs). Anyone play it differently?


I wouldn't cap it before the flop.


>3) By now I had amassed quite a bit of dough and

>people really respected me as the last hand will

>show.


This is unlikely. They may have noticed that you're hitting but the emotion is usually more one of jealousy than respect. In any case you may get some people to play tighter against you while you're winning. Sometimes the opposite happens and they'd just love to run you down.


I'd caution against sitting at a table looking for respect. You're there to play poker and stack other people's chips, not earn their respect. What's their respect worth to you once you leave the table? But maybe you have different motivations for playing poker than I do.


>I called with 8s7s utg+1 after utg had called,

>and a guy who I know has also read HPFAP who sat

>down recently mucks and talks to the semi-tricky

>guy and I know they talk about me and it is

>possible that he folded because "I" am in the

>pot. 5 opponents see the flop.


Or he folded because his cards sucked? I find that if players are talking about you at the table they're talking about something they think you did wrong. It's not to say you did anything wrong, but that they think you did.


If I'm playing well and I manage to really stick it to someone in a hand there's usually noone talking about the hand or me afterwards. But notice what happens when someone makes a bad play or what looks to be a bad play.


>Flop QsQh7d. I bet... Everyone folds! LOL!


You had two pair, noone else had anything. I don't see that they gave you unusual respect here.


>4) Last hand: KcQc in BB and only three or four

>players have called. I call too to prevent it

>from becoming a shootout.


It's the best time to raise.

The purpose for posting the hands individually is that it makes it much easier to get a good discussion developed.


Hand #1


First, you must be reprimanded for playing a hand as weak as A8o. This hand should be folded everytime. You should not even be considering playing anything weaker than ATo. If you can learn to tighten up pre-flop, it will go a long way towards making you a winner.


Now, on to the river. You should not be calling here with Ace-high with several players behind you yet to act. Those players can easily call with just a 9, 7, or pocket pair. You are giving up very little on those rare occasions that you fold the best hand. However, you can consider raising to get those 9's and 7's to fold behind you.

Capping pre-flop with JJ in this situation is good. It will help you make better decisions post-flop.


A flop of Qd,Td,Xs is disasterous for JJ against an opponent who 3-bet pre-flop. I can't think of a much worse flop. What hands could he cap with pre-flop? I'd say AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKso, and AQs. The only hands which you can beat are the AK hands and they have 8 outs against you. Against typical opponents, you should bet the flop and turn and probably fold to a raise.

Pre-flop, you should only be playing 87s UTG+1 if UTG has limped in. Otherwise, you should discipline yourself to fold these medium suited connectors.


In time, you will learn when to bet these flops even when you don't have a 7. The reason everybody folded is that nobody had either a Queen or a 7. All you did is value bet with the best hand.

You can certainly raise with KQs in the big blind in a multi-way pot. What you definitely need to do is to raise with more than AA, KK, and QQ to prevent your big blind raises from being too readable.


BTW, I raise with KQs everytime regardless of the game conditions. One of the reasons I do this is that it is the only hand I regularly raise with that isn't either a pocket pair or a big Ace.

">1) I call $3 on the cutoff or button with A8o

>and 5 opponents see the flop.


Well, I need AJ min to call in this spot."


I know it´s only marginal, but as I was in late position, without a doubt the best player at the table, and because my opponent are completely untricky, I chose to call.

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">River: 9h7hKc,X,Kd. The player I described as

>the only guy who was somewhat tricky bet out ...

>Would you call here?


In a small pot, the first bet often takes it. There's a reason for that, and you're right not to call."


I am not so sure about that because it was super obvious to me that the guy certainly did not have a king, and very likely not much in the way of pairs either. (Clarkmeister in fact stated in a very recent post that a big portion of his wins comes from calling down players on river with ace high).

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"Are you sure it's not your ego doing the betting here? A lot of players will overplay their hands because they're in denial that a better hand may be out there. It's like they just feel so unlucky that it's happening that it just can't be so they start raising with the worst of it."


Most certainly not. I knew that I could very well be beat as soon as he reraised, and if there had been only one cold-caller (and most certainly if everyone else had folded) I would simply have called (I´d also call even with AA against a lone opponent - let him believe he has got the better hand and then give him on turn). But as there had been two, and I was fairly certain that they had junk, I capped. Also note that if there had been like a total of 5 opponents, I also wouldn´t have capped, because now it´s more likely that I have to improve to win.

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"I'd caution against sitting at a table looking for respect. You're there to play poker and stack other people's chips, not earn their respect. What's their respect worth to you once you leave the table? But maybe you have different motivations for playing poker than I do."


You misunderstood. I do not play because I want to be respected - my single aim is to play well. But if people pay me lots of respect when I enter the pot (in the sense of "uh-oh"), I get a much better read on them, have better control, and my bets and raises to cut down the field are more effective (as the 8s7s hand should show).

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"I find that if players are talking about you at the table they're talking about something they think you did wrong."


I´m sorry but I was there - and you weren´t. The guy who folded, gives me credit for my game and it´s the same vice versa (after all he brought me to this site here).

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">Flop QsQh7d. I bet... Everyone folds! LOL!


You had two pair, noone else had anything. I don't see that they gave you unusual respect here."


We are talking about loose-passive here, yes? So let´s assume that not I but someone else who likes to bet many flops, often with nothing, had bet? Would there have been callers? I think the answer is yes.

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">4) Last hand: KcQc in BB and only three or four

>players have called. I call too to prevent it

>from becoming a shootout.


It's the best time to raise."


Yep, this time I think I agree.

"First, you must be reprimanded for playing a hand as weak as A8o."


Aaagh! I´ll be good in the future, I promise. ;-)


I know A8o sucks, but I have not so many opponents, position, and my opponents play weak. (Could have made it suited though and discard the offsuit).


"Now, on to the river. You should not be calling here with Ace-high with several players behind you yet to act. Those players can easily call with just a 9, 7, or pocket pair. You are giving up very little on those rare occasions that you fold the best hand. However, you can consider raising to get those 9's and 7's to fold behind you."


So if play then raise, you say. Hmmm... I guess you are right generally, but my guts tell me calling would have been appropriate too in this situation because semi-tricky guy didn´t raise preflop with AA and KK so either he has got junk or a way better hand. But nothing to agonize over.

"A flop of Qd,Td,Xs is disasterous for JJ against an opponent who 3-bet pre-flop."


Yep, not so good, but in about 75% of flops there will be an overcard to JJ, and I had the Jd too (not that it matters much). Anyway after the 3-bettor just called, it was fairly obvious to me that he was behind (weak opponents as I said), so betting the turn is obligatory as is checking the river in case he has AA, KK, QQ, TT, or AQ.

"Pre-flop, you should only be playing 87s UTG+1 if UTG has limped in. Otherwise, you should discipline yourself to fold these medium suited connectors."


Exactly my thoughts. I would have folded had utg folded.

>>You should not even be considering playing anything weaker than ATo


Really? Say you have A8o or A9o in cutoff or button, all folds to you. This is not an automatic raise for you?


Curious.

That's different. Axo is a hand you definitely should raise with to steal the blinds.


But, you should not be playing A9o or worse with multiple limpers in front of you. I believe Fishy Whale had 2 players limp ahead of him.

"but in about 75% of flops there will be an overcard to JJ"


I think the number is closer to 55%.

AceHigh is right.


An overcard to JJ will come on the flop 59% of the time, not including those times in which you flop a set or better.


Source: Hold'em's Odds Book by Mike Petriv

Something that interests me is how these discussions might change depending on how often someone plays. For example, I agree that raising KQs out of the blinds is a positive move for Dynasty , who (I think) frequently plays with the same people. He rightly doesn't want to limit his raising hands to big pairs. However, I play at the Taj maybe 1-2 times per month, and may see 1 or 2 people at my table consistently. I feel pretty comfortable limiting my blind raises to AA or KK (other than a heads up situation or big suited hand in a multi-multil-way pot) because that's not giving up all that much information. I don't think either one of these strategies is wrong, but it could be depending on your typical game.

You wrote:

"I know A8o sucks, but I have not so many opponents, position, and my opponents play weak. (Could have made it suited though and discard the offsuit). "


Not to even begin with all the comments I have about your play (and thinking -- more important!), I do want to ask you a question:


You called with A8o in LP, then checked through the flop and turn and folded to a bet on the river. And you're doing this because your opponents are playing weak? How exactly do you categorize your play in this hand?


Fold this hand everytime. If you are raising, you should be doing once in a blue moon for image (which is a bad play in LL since know one cares). Don't ever call (with limpers before you).

You're not raising with KQs in the blinds so your regulars at the table know it's not AA.


You're raising with KQs in the blinds so everyone thinks you have ~AA. You don't need to do this with ppl that know you. Everyone already assume a BB raise is ~AA.