Collusion or Just Really Poor Play?

[Haupt_234]

Not sure why people would collude in a 2/4 room, but sure looked fishy to me.... any thoughts?

Also, one of the players location was "Not Available".


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, Hero folds.

River: (10 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+2 checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 10 BB, between UTG and UTG+2.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG+2 (10 BB).</font>

Results in white below:
UTG shows 3s 3c (two pair, eights and threes).
UTG+2 shows 6d 6s (two pair, eights and sixes).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 10 BB.

Haupt_234

[asdf1234]

No particularly convincing evidence of collusion in this hand, IMO. Also, bet or checkraise the flop.

[LetsRock]

doesn't look like collusion to me.

the most common form of on-line collusion usually features 2 players raising like crazy until showdown with a third party trapped between them with one of the raisers inexplicably folding before showdown.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Don't see the collusion. If they were colluding, they would be pumping the pot with you trapped in the middle.

[Styles]

looks to me like two people with pocket pairs who both misread the other one as being on a flush draw.

[PokerBob]

IMO you missed a bet on the flop. MP2 bet the flop to see if he could win it right there, as no one showed any strength up to that point. UTG raised to make MP2 call 2 cold and find out if his flop bet was for real. Call me crazy, but I don't even see this as particularly poor play.

[Haupt_234]

Alright, maybe it isn't collusion. But as for the hand, I bet out on the turn to represent either a weak K or, which I was tring to represent, trip 8s. I am raised by a hand which could not beat either, and then that raise was called by an even worse hand.

How is that not poor play? Way too aggressive....

Haupt_234

[LetsRock]

Honestly, the poorest play here is likely yours. I have no problem respecting the fact that someone may have made trips, but with TP (and no eveidence of better kicker) I'm gonna see his hand most of the time.

He made a play and you bit. He followed the Theorom of Poker to perfection: you played your hand differently than you would have if you could see his cards. The other caller was a bit loose, but I've seen much worse.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, maybe it isn't collusion. But as for the hand, I bet out on the turn to represent either a weak K or, which I was tring to represent, trip 8s. I am raised by a hand which could not beat either, and then that raise was called by an even worse hand.

How is that not poor play? Way too aggressive....

Haupt_234

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Majorkong is going to have a cow about this one. What did you think he had when he raised back? What do you think he wanted you to do? Did he succeed?

[Haupt_234]

Well, the only reason I did lay it down was because of the cold-caller with 33 inbetween. He got lucky, in a way, since he did find a loose caller to call his raise and bump me out.

Most of the time there won't be such a loose caller with 33 inbetween (less than 10% of the time). So 90% of the time, I am calling him down and taking his money...

Did he make me fold a better hand? More or less... the one who really made me lay down the hand was the cold caller, like I said.


Isn't this correct logic, or am I missing something? I see the point you are making, but see mine...

Haupt_234

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, the only reason I did lay it down was because of the cold-caller with 33 inbetween. He got lucky, in a way, since he did find a loose caller to call his raise and bump me out.

Most of the time there won't be such a loose caller with 33 inbetween (less than 10% of the time). So 90% of the time, I am calling him down and taking his money...

Did he make me fold a better hand? More or less... the one who really made me lay down the hand was the cold caller, like I said.


Isn't this correct logic, or am I missing something? I see the point you are making, but see mine...

Haupt_234

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't see yours. You're saying these opponents read you well enough to know that you'd fold due to a cold call? Isn't a guy who goes check-call on the flop, then calls 2bets cold on the turn, most likely on a flush draw?

UTG figured you were bluffing when the 8 came down (since most players would check-raise with an 8). You didn't bet or checkraise the flop, so he figures you don't have a K either.

Or (more likely) he's an idiot who got lucky (and then got unlucky)

This looks nothing like collusion to me.

[Nottom]

The guy with 33 was bad. The guy with 66 was a bit overaggressive maybe, but made a reasonable attempt to take down the pot when he sensed weakness.

If I were you I wouldn't let the coldcall bother me since it looks more like a flush draw than a hand that is ahead of you, I would however fold to the raise about 95% of the time.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
The guy with 33 was bad. The guy with 66 was a bit overaggressive maybe, but made a reasonable attempt to take down the pot when he sensed weakness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you got this backwards. The turn raiser is the UTG player with 33, UTG+2 has 66 and cold called the turn raise. I think 66 played horribly and 33 was overagressive but as you said, made a reasonable attempt to take down the pot.

I also fold this here 95% of the time and don't think this was collusion at all.

[Nottom]

Yeah you are right ... whomever called was bad, doesn't really matter which one it was.

[Mano]

But as for the hand, I bet out on the turn to represent either a weak K or, which I was tring to represent, trip 8s

Perhaps this is exactly what your opponent was thinking, and that you would be hard pressed to call a raise without an 8. He was trying to get you to fold a better hand, and he succeeded.