Played agressive. What do I need to change?

[jedi]

Here are my thoughts on this hand. No read, except that LP is willing to lay down a hand when he misses.

jedi: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Pre-flop:

2 people fold, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, jedi calls. 1 fold, LP calls Button calls. SB calls. BB checks.

2 limpers in front of me, I'm playing for set value here.

Flop (board: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif):

Ok, I have an overpair to the board, though the board is paired. I think it's time to see if anyone has a 5.

SB checks. BB checks. EP1 checks. EP2 checks. jedi bets $2. LP raises to $4. Button folds. SB folds.
BB calls. EP1 folds. EP2 folds.
jedi re-raises to $6. LP calls. BB calls.

I led out and 3-bet the LP player. I wanted him to fold his overcards or even represent a 5. When he flat calls my bet, I put him on overcards.

Turn (board: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif):

BB checks. jedi bets $4. LP calls.
BB calls.

I still have an overpair to the board, and the only person I'm worried about is BB now. Could he have stuck around with A2 or 67? No one has raised me back on the turn, which is where I'd expect someone with a 5 to raise me.

River (board: 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif):

BB checks. jedi bets $4. LP calls. BB calls.

Whoopee! Jackpot. Now I'm pretty sure I'm ahead of everyone. The only one to beat me is 55.

Showdown:

<font color="white">
jedi_padawan has full house, eights full of fives.
BigHef mucks cards.
(BigHef has T T.)
fuzzyfw mucks cards.
(fuzzyfw has 7 5.)
</font>

My commentary on results.
<font color="white"> Yikes! I was behind the entire time. Did I go way overboard on this hand? I know I got lucky, but after the flop, no one raised me back and I never got a chance to fold.</font>

[umdpoker]

i don't think you played it too poorly. in fact, i would probably play like this a lot of the time. but i always seem to be on the wrong end of hands like this, so maybe my opinion is wrong.

[asdf1234]

I would play it similarly, although the cold caller between you and the other player worries me.

[LetsRock]

I don't know that I would have 3 bet the flop, but it's not the worst play in the world.

Some players really under play their hands, but since the 5 was fairly weak, he was worried that a better five was out there, and the TT was in the same shoes as you, not really sure if a 5 was out there or not

nice catch!

(I love it when a plan comes together! /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Don't know about the three-bet, but I'd have played it similarly. His preflop limp says middle pair or overcards, not a big pair.

[Cohiba Al]

This is not my advice, I'm asking a question to learn here myself.

What about check raising on the flop to learn the same information, instead of leading out and 3-betting?
1. If you get a call couldn't you put him on overcards or an overpair worried about a third 5?
2. If you get the re-raise can you lay down confident of the set against you?
3. Won't this way save you a full small bet? (unless you call the re-raise)
4. In which situation would you still call-down with your eights even if you think you may have second-best hand?

[Rico Suave]

Cohiba:

[ QUOTE ]
What about check raising on the flop to learn the same information, instead of leading out and 3-betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a valid line if you are CERTAIN that someone will bet. He may have the best hand on the flop, but any overcard that falls on the turn could change that...and giving 6 opponents a free shot with their overcards would be disastrous.

--Rico

[Cohiba Al]

Ah right. The check-raise for information is best done if someone raised pre-flop then. I agree, with no previous raisers the chance of a free turn card is too high to check there, especially with that many players left. Thanks for fixing me.

[jedi]

My answers to your questions that reflect my thoughts, not the right way to do things (that's what I'm trying to find out.

[ QUOTE ]
This is not my advice, I'm asking a question to learn here myself.

What about check raising on the flop to learn the same information, instead of leading out and 3-betting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't consider this, but other posters have already addressed the issue.

[ QUOTE ]

1. If you get a call couldn't you put him on overcards or an overpair worried about a third 5?


[/ QUOTE ]

I did put him on overcards. I did NOT put anyone on a third five because I was never raised back. With the possibly maniacal 3-bet, I was trying to get LP to fold if he didn't have a 5 and was hoping that I'd get raised back if he did.

[ QUOTE ]

2. If you get the re-raise can you lay down confident of the set against you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably, especially on the flop. On the turn if I got raised, I'd probably call down (is that bad?)

[ QUOTE ]

3. Won't this way save you a full small bet? (unless you call the re-raise)

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we still talking about check-raising, or getting 4-bet? It not only would save me a full small bet, but 2 big bets later in the hand. I think I need to think about this more.

[ QUOTE ]

4. In which situation would you still call-down with your eights even if you think you may have second-best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this situation, no overcards fell, and I didn't put LP on a 5 at all. The Big Blind was the one that worried me the most, because he could have anything. However, it's still likely that either of them are betting top pair, which I have beat.

Any comments on my thoughts?

[Cohiba Al]

Sorry, my questions were referring to the check-raise option I proposed... which was pointed out as invalid in this particular situation.

[StellarWind]

I think your play is OK. I probably would have refrained from raising the flop unless I thought LP was reasonably aggressive. It seems to me that you do not know LP well enough to judge whether he has a 5, TT, 77, or a 3 and that you need to plan on seeing this one through. Folding to a flop cap is out IMO because some LL players will push a hand like A3 while others will turtle with a weak 5.

[ QUOTE ]
No one has raised me back on the turn, which is where I'd expect someone with a 5 to raise me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but you need to listen to your own betting. BB may have started as a slowplay, but you made so much noise on the flop he's put you on a five. His kicker is nearly worthless and he's scared.

But it doesn't matter what you think of your chances. You need to bet and you did. Someone was going to bet the turn so it might as well be you.

[Louie Landale]

I don't play in the hyper aggressive games, but I cannot see putting a player on just overcards when he RAISES and then "just" calls your 3-bet. I also don't play in the hyper loose games, but I cannot NOT put the BB on a 5 when he checks-and-calls a double bet; but I suppose he MAY have 64 draw.

In real games you are dead meat when he raises and gets called. Call once with your 88 and hope everyone checks the turn.

I also cannot put together the "bet to find out if someone has a 5" and then raise and bet it out on the turn. It would be more truthful to say "I'll find out if someone has a 5 when the pot is so big I'll end up paying it off". betting/raising to gain information is only good if you are going to put it to good use.

- Louie

[Nottom]

I would have likely played it the same way.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

In real games you are dead meat when he raises and gets called. Call once with your 88 and hope everyone checks the turn.

I also cannot put together the "bet to find out if someone has a 5" and then raise and bet it out on the turn. It would be more truthful to say "I'll find out if someone has a 5 when the pot is so big I'll end up paying it off". betting/raising to gain information is only good if you are going to put it to good use.

- Louie

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thoughts here. What do you think about calling the raise on the flop and leading out again on the turn if an overcard doesn't show up? Could I really have put someone on a higher pocket pair than I? This might be the right place to "keep the pot small" because I'll lose less money when someone has a 5.