Playing the player -- a hand

[Schneids]

First, some brief table history:

Less than 10 hands ago, the guy to my right limped EP, and I raised with AK. Flop came raggety, ten-high with a flush draw on it. I proceeded to weakly play it and call down the whole way (with the river going check/check), to be shown a 52s that had flopped a pair of two's. Anyway, the calls were due to knowing my opponent was capable of betting a flush draw the whole way, as well as betting overcards the whole way. So, long story short, I think UTG, who is involved in this hand, noticed this fact. I regard UTG to be fairly tight-aggressive (yes, even with his open limp UTG. I'm pretty sure that means lowish PP, JTs, or T9s from him). If the table was full of players like him, I wouldn't be at it. Thankfully, it isn't.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Schneids is Button with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, MP folds, <font color="CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids raises</font>, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Schneids raises</font>
Happy days?

[stripsqueez]

so this line is playing him for say 77 ?

you need good image and a good opponent to have any chance that you can push him off a J

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
so this line is playing him for say 77 ?


[/ QUOTE ]

True. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Let me rephrase the question I never asked but probably should have: How often do you guys get to immediately cash in on situations where you assess that your image will allow you to win a pot you shouldn't have won? In these crazy 10/20 Party games, is there even any point in doing so?

Basically, I'm in search of ways to bump up my BB/hr another .1 or .2, since I think there's still room for more growth. And image plays/playing the opponent in situations such as this is one where I would "typically" "give up" and concede the pot to them, is one way I'd like to explore a little more often.

[ QUOTE ]
you need good image and a good opponent to have any chance that you can push him off a J

[/ QUOTE ]
I've played enough hands with him to judge that I'm pretty sure he's a solid, thinking opponent. My image at the time was pretty weak-loose. My thinking was that this guy saw me not show any aggression when I had just previously raised PF, so, maybe I'm allotted an opportunity to now show aggression and convince him I really have a king.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was that this guy saw me not show any aggression when I had just previously raised PF, so, maybe I'm allotted an opportunity to now show aggression and convince him I really have a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

sounds good to me - you need to know who will notice the way you play and who wont - i think you played this hand fine - i'm not certain that this will be a long term winner against this opponent but you had a decent plan

i dont want to hold myself out as an expert at reading my image and opponents - for me its usually the case that i become aware that the way i have played at a given table would create a certain image - thats more to do with a streak of cards i have experienced than any image i have fostered - to the extent that i foster an image i go for aggro which is why i'm not too upset about lines such as yours on this hand - it might go bad but it had upside and it sends a message that your not going to be pushed around - i think your not fostering an aggressive image right unless you look stupid some of the time - nate is one of the stupidest players you'll see over a short space of time - utterly fearless to a point where it takes some time to observe that its not stupid

its not about precision but blind aggression - constantly prefering the aggro approach is not a small tinkering with your game - its a difference in style - a good aggressive player benefits because he can play in a broader range and thereby give his opponents more ways to get it wrong, whilst masking the fact that he is also capable of playing very tight

i say all this because whilst not wanting to speak for your given "style" the improvements you talk about may be achievable through better reading of your image and your opponents - but - the benefit your seeking may be something that isnt comensurate with your style

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Packerfan1]

Ok strip, I'll give you more ammo here against me. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I realize the point of Schneids post is making a play specifically against a read of a player. That being said...

Nowadays for me small pairs go in the muck here without much remorse. I need 2 limpers minimum to make it right to call and I (right or wrong) just feel that raising here with 55 after one limper is just not correct unless you are convinced the blinds will fold (rare at Party) and the EP player will release very quickly post flop (also somewhat rare at Party). These games are just too loose to try to purely muscle through them, I feel.

You've shown a LOT of strength here, and he keeps comin.

That being said, I think he's got Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. This being Party I also would not be surprised if the 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the river. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Ni Han! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Pack

[stoxtrader]

my experience is that, on average, even in the 10/20 game, and even the better players, make the mistake of calling to much rather than folding too much.

Accordingly, I now make the "mistake" of overplaying /value betting to death my decent/good hands, and bluffing infrequently. generally speaking.

this hand specifically is in the muck from me.

[Schneids]

UTG thought for about 3 seconds and then folded.

Dunno if my play is right, since on the flop and turn I've invested 3BB's total to try to win a small pot, so I've gotta succeed probably far more often than I will. And, in all honesty, had he called the raise I really don't know if I'm checking or betting the river. When in doubt I usually bet, but, I'm sure that certain river cards would have made me check instead.
In any case, if I feel I'm against an observant, reasonably tight opponent and I have a weakish table image, I'm probably going to explore making more plays like this in the coming weeks and see how it goes. At the worst, I figure, showing down hands like this means I'll get even more action when I raise with the intention of capping. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Updates to come on whether I think this is a wasted play or one I like on occasion.

[Schneids]

WRT PF, I look at it like this:

If I can get HU, with a pair, with position, with dead money in the pot, against a tight (and his UTG limp making me feel fairly comfortable in guessing his potential hands), straightforward, observant opponent, I think I'll take it, if only for the overlay the dead money provides (assume I win roughly half the HU battles).

With that said, 44 on down are mucks here. I'm a walking enigma.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
my experience is that, on average, even in the 10/20 game, and even the better players, make the mistake of calling to much rather than folding too much.

Accordingly, I now make the "mistake" of overplaying /value betting to death my decent/good hands, and bluffing infrequently. generally speaking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
this hand specifically is in the muck from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, most of the time.