Good lay down?

[bosoxfan]

***** Hand History for Game 507846404 *****
Lonedawg finished in eighth place.
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 3078643) - Tue Apr 06 23:25:30 EDT 2004
Table Table 11978 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: ralph_b (2015)
Seat 4: rios_21st (770)
Seat 5: gspot17 (1780)
Seat 6: yuccapoker (1615)
Seat 7: bosoxfan10 (755)
Seat 8: OneCard (505)
Seat 10: macdad12 (560)
ralph_b posts small blind (10)
rios_21st posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to bosoxfan10 [ Qh, Jd ]
gspot17 folds.
yuccapoker calls (15)
bosoxfan10 calls (15)
OneCard folds.
macdad12 folds.
ralph_b calls (5)
rios_21st checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ts, Kd, 5s ]
ralph_b bets (15)
rios_21st folds.
yuccapoker raises (30) to 30
bosoxfan10 calls (30)
ralph_b calls (15)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Ah ]
ralph_b checks.
yuccapoker bets (15)
bosoxfan10 raises (85) to 85
ralph_b calls (85)
yuccapoker calls (70)
** Dealing River ** : [ 9s ]
ralph_b checks.
yuccapoker bets (450)
bosoxfan10 folds.
ralph_b folds.


What should I have done to keep myself out of this position in the first place? Should I have called? I'm very unsure about this play.Any help would be great.

[PrayingMantis]

The basic thing, IMO, is to raise much more on the turn. The pot is 150 when it gets to you. You want flush draws to start paying you. So I would probably make it ~200. If somebody calls (I guess this is low-limit SNG), and the flush hits and he bets big, you are in a tough position, and probably need to fold. But most of the time, i.e., when flush doesn't hit, you are making money on your straight anyway, on the turn, and if anybody calls to a bet on the river.

Edit: With the size of your stack, and against *certain players* (very loose callers, who love chasing draws), all-in on the turn might also be acceptable.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

What should I have done to keep myself out of this position in the first place?

Don't limp with QJo preflop. Once you're in the pot, I'd make my raise on the turn bigger. Pot-size would be 180. That's 25% of your chips, but you have to make it hurt for the flush draw to call.

In your shoes, I would've pushed in on the turn. If a flush draw calls and hits, so be it.

But to reiterate my first point, I'm not a big fan of QJo. First in 2 off the button, if you're going to play it, raise to 3-4x BB. But, of course, I'm not a big fan of limping first in from 2 off the button either.

[bosoxfan]

Thanks for your replies. It was a 5+1 tourney I was in. There were very few raises which is why i limped in. If this is the case in the game should all the hands I play be raises? I realize now I probably shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your replies. It was a 5+1 tourney I was in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a game selection point. Don't play 5+1s. Either play 10+1s (players aren't tougher there) or find a site that has 5+.50s. Over the course of time, you'll find that that extra 50 cents adds up.

[bosoxfan]

My bankroll is kind of low. What should it be to play 10+1?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If your bankroll can only support $5's, play on a site with a lower rake. PokerStars & Ultimate Bet have a $5 + .50 structure. That extra 10% added to the rake will add up over the long haul.

[bosoxfan]

I picked party because it was the largest and I assumed the weakest feild. Could you recommend which of the two you mentioned is most favorable? I notice a lot of the posters here play at Stars, which leads me to beleive I should avoid that site while I am still green.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If this is the case in the game should all the hands I play be raises?

Until the blinds start getting high in comparison to your stack sizes, limping after limpers is fine, and even limping first-in at a full table in the early rounds is OK. When it's been folded to you one or two off the button, I think it's prudent to come in with strength. You'll have a better idea of what you're up against when called, and more often than not, you'll win the blinds. In most cases, when you're called, the flop will miss both of you. The fact that you showed strength preflop allows you to control the action postflop.

[William]

I notice a lot of the posters here play at Stars, which leads me to beleive I should avoid that site while I am still green.

It is true that the competition is a little tougher at stars, but I'll rather be the last one in a classroom full of bright students than the first one in a classroom full of morons.

Believe me, it may be harder the first week, but your game will improve much faster.
A clear +EV in the long run...

Take care,
William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bosoxfan]

thank you all for the help.

[Stoneii]

Hi bosoxfan

First, take comfort from the fact that William is one of the higher earners of poker who are good enough to make a very healthy living from it, most don't/can't/shouldn't make a living from it and never will (c'est moi /images/graemlins/cool.gif).

It's just a passionate hobby for a lot (and can be nicely profitable for some) where you don't actually have to worry about paying the mortgage from results (thankfully /images/graemlins/tongue.gif).

Mostly it should be an ENJOYABLE passionate hobby and the purpose of your bankroll is to fund the passion (addiction is a term my wife uses but I completely, erm, disagree /images/graemlins/blush.gif).

I believe it's been quoted here that you should pitch your game selection so that you have about 30 times buy-in to comfortably take the down swings, but as William brutally points out, if you've just started you'll likely have to pay your dues and be a losing player while you learn your trade (hobby/art/skill whatever).

Most on here started as regular losing players and your first bankroll should be seen as your dues (how do you think theses guys earn so much!!!!).

However, spent wisely you can learn an awful lot from losing. I lost my first 2 (very modest) bankrolls. Rather than get morbid over the loss, step back, work out why, what are you strong at, what are you weak at and play to your strengths short term (there's nothing that quite focusses the mind as losing money /images/graemlins/smile.gif). Then as you gather some confidence, read, read and reread articles/books to identify and stiffen up the weaker areas before you rush in and throw more money away (or worse, money you slowly made from playing to your strengths that you lose far quicker playing to your weaknesses).

I was, like most, very very impatient to start with so multi's were completely beyond me and SnG's appeal much more to the, shall we say, patience challenged /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I still fight a sometimes overwhelming urge to mix it up too early in games - and still cave to it but much less often than before - even if you think you're folding the better hand sometimes, it's not always the wrong move - took me a while to drum that into my head!.

I play at a level that I have now got covered over 50 times by my bankroll (sounds grand but work it out /images/graemlins/wink.gif) because I'm comfortable at this level just now and I ENJOY it.

'scuse the waffle, finding this site and reading some of the informative posts is an early indication you're taking the right approach to changing your losing plays. I found the forum in January and my results are HUGELY improved, I kid you not, there's an awful lot to learn here.

Good Luck

stoneii

[bosoxfan]

Thanks Stoneii,
I'm pretty much following the path you outlined right now. My first $75 went in my first 15 sng with 1 second place finish. After that i didn't play for a month and a half and lurked here and did some reading. Now i'm on my second bank roll and staying about even and trying to improve. The posts here have been invaluable. Thanks to all who share their knowledge.