Bad Start at $5 NL - Please Advise

[monkey_love]

Bad Start at $5 NL - Please Advise

I've just gotten started playing for real money and according to Poker Tracker I'm down $1.71 after 363 hands (it's actually about 10 percent worse since the 200 hand limit at Poker Stars prevented me from importing all of my hands). I know that the dollar amount and the sample size are both small but it's still a discouraging start. As a beginner, I am confident that there are significant leaks in my game and I'm hoping that someone will be able to identify some of them.

I was playing $5 NL at PokerStars (.01/.02 blinds). I tried to join 8 handed tables with average pot size closer to .50 (usually looked to be around .75) and % seeing flop above 50% (usually started at over 50% but sank to 30s after playing for a while).

I am not sure what the most signficant Poker Tracker numbers are but here are the basics:

Vol. Put $ in the Pot 20.66
Vol. Put $ in from SB 50.00
Saw Flop All Hands 29.20
Saw Flop Not a Blind 17.56
Won $ WSF % 15.09
Went to SD % 20.75
Won $ at SD 50.00
PF Raise % 0.28
Aggression Factor 0.18
Folded to River Bet 52.38 (11 of 21)

The BisonBison hand converter doesn't seem to support NL ring games at Poker Stars yet so please bear with me for some sample hands (results in white when available).

Hand 1

3 folds, I call .02 with 9d 9s, 2 more folds, SB calls, BB checks
*** FLOP *** [6d Qh Kd]
blinds check, I bet .04, SB folds, BB calls
*** TURN *** [6d Qh Kd] [Qc]
BB checks, I bet .08, BB raises to .20, I call
*** RIVER *** [6d Qh Kd Qc] [2d]
BB bets .10, I call

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Hand 2

UTG calls, MP1 calls, I call from LP with 4h 4s, SB calls, BB checks
*** FLOP *** [4d Ts Js]
blinds check, UTG bets .12, MP1 folds, I call, blinds fold
*** TURN *** [4d Ts Js] [2d]
UTG bets .20, I call
*** RIVER *** [4d Ts Js 2d] [6h]
UTG bets 1.40 (all in), I fold

UTG doesn't show hand.

Hand 3

1 caller and two folds, I call with 9c Kc, 4 more callers, BB checks
*** FLOP *** [Qd Jh Ts]
three checks, I bet .08, MP2 calls, everyone else folds except SB who calls
*** TURN *** [Qd Jh Ts] [Ah]
SB checks, I bet .08, MP2 calls, SB raises .96, I call, MP2 folds
*** RIVER *** [Qd Jh Ts Ah] [Qc]
SB bets .88, I call and am all-in

<font color="white"> </font>

Thanks for any thoughts.

[thirddan]

Im not a NL player, but...

Hand 1: check/fold flop, you are most likely beat unless a 9 fall and then someone may make straight, definitely fold when raised on the turn...

Hand 2: i don't suggest slowplaying at the low levels as it will probably cost you money, also the only realistic hands that beat you are TT/JJ and most players would raise preflop with these hands, and would he bet betting the whole way with only pocket 6's? i definitely think you folded a winner here...

Hand 3:looks ok, but i would bet more on the flop and turn, at least size of pot...

[nothumb]

You might get more comments on this hand in the pot- and no-limit forums.

Sorry I can't really help. I've never played .01/.02 blinds NL but I imagine those games get pretty silly.

Welcome to 2+2 though.

[Zetack]

I think if you're new to poker, no limit is a rough game to start with. You know you can get a lot of experience at the .02/.04 limit game and even if you're playing horribly it'll probably take you 4-5 hours to run through two bucks. You can blow that in five minutes at the no limit table and not necessarily learn anything in the process.

Although you call it a 5 dollar table I'd buy in for two if you are going to play the NL table...that gives you enough to play with, without you blowing too much on a hand or two.


Ok these specific hands:

#1. On the flop there is 6 cents in there, if you're going to take a stab at it even with two overcards to your pair, bet at least six, but because its such small stakes I'd bet 10 or 12 cents.
--on the turn, fold to the raise. You took your stab at it and didn't take it. You don't have to win this pot...in fact you aren't going to. Fold up shop and wait for a better opportunity.

#2.
Flop: On a less scary board I might smooth call here and try to trap later. You could call and see if the turn is a scary card. But I put a raise in here somewhere between double and tripld the .12 cents the sb put in. If he folds, fine, if he calls fine, if he raise shove a ton of money in the pot.
Turn...ok, he's put in .20 more cents, its a nice pot now, and if he's got a good draw you want to make it really pricey for him. Raise and raise big, put at least a dollar in the pot, and it'd be fine to shove in.
River...Hey, the only thing you're behind here is an over set and sets don't grow on trees. Plus a tens or jacks probably would've been raised PF. Call his all in. He could very well be on a busted draw, two pair, or even top pair. If he oversets you, well that's poker, buy in again, but when you hit your set this is what you wanted, somebody all in with no flush, straight or boat even possible. (ok he could have 3-5, but there are some risks you just have to discount)

#3.

Look to check raise this flop, there are still, what, four people to act after you?
--Turn, well you can't be too happy with the A, but the bright spot is that now you don't have to worry about being behind to a limper with A-K. When the sb gets in there for .96 shove in, you have the nuts and while you lose the other player, he probably was going away for the .96 cents anyway.
--I don't like the river at all, that may have cost you the hand, but you should have been all in at that point anyway.

--Zetack

[MortalNuts]

Dude, I just want to point out one thing:

PF Raise % 0.28

Err, so that means you raised ONE hand PF in your 363-hand database? Yowsa. In limit I don't believe you could possibly recoup the money you've missed by playing that passively PF; it might be possible in no-limit because you can get so much more in the pot post-flop, but still bad.

For the record, I play NL pretty much only in tourneys (SNG and multi), so I guess I may be slightly more biased towards making lots of PF raises. But there's no way that raising only 1 hand out of 363 is correct, unless that was the worst run of 363 hands ever. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

cheers,

mn

[monkey_love]

Thanks for the responses thus far.

So if I'm reading things correctly, I need to be significantly more aggressive - but know when to quit. Even though I am very interested in NL, I could probably benefit from practice at limit as well.

I didn't do the formatting right before so here are the results:

Hand 1

3 folds, I call .02 with 9d 9s, 2 more folds, SB calls, BB checks
*** FLOP *** [6d Qh Kd]
blinds check, I bet .04, SB folds, BB calls
*** TURN *** [6d Qh Kd] [Qc]
BB checks, I bet .08, BB raises to .20, I call
*** RIVER *** [6d Qh Kd Qc] [2d]
BB bets .10, I call

BB shows [2c Qd] (a full house, Queens full of Deuces)

Hand 2

UTG calls, MP1 calls, I call from LP with 4h 4s, SB calls, BB checks
*** FLOP *** [4d Ts Js]
blinds check, UTG bets .12, MP1 folds, I call, blinds fold
*** TURN *** [4d Ts Js] [2d]
UTG bets .20, I call
*** RIVER *** [4d Ts Js 2d] [6h]
UTG bets 1.40 (all in), I fold

UTG doesn't show hand.

Hand 3

1 caller and two folds, I call with 9c Kc, 4 more callers, BB checks
*** FLOP *** [Qd Jh Ts]
three checks, I bet .08, MP2 calls, everyone else folds except SB who calls
*** TURN *** [Qd Jh Ts] [Ah]
SB checks, I bet .08, MP2 calls, SB raises .96, I call, MP2 folds
*** RIVER *** [Qd Jh Ts Ah] [Qc]
SB bets .88, I call and am all-in

SB shows [8s Ks] (a straight, Ten to Ace) (split pot)

[citizenkn]

I agree with others here that NL is not a good place to start for a new player. Try the limit games, and then maybe some NL SNG tourneys, then go back to the NL ring games when you feel more comfortable. As to your hands:

Hand 1---with two overcards on the flop and no set for you, proceed with caution. The bet on the flop is OK, but you have to fold on the turn raise.

Hand 2---On an uncoordinated board, with no flushes and a straight extremely unlikely, you should be willing to put all your money in the pot with that set. Set over set is rare; I'd put UTG on a T-J two pair. This was a terrible fold...it was very likely you had the winning hand here.

Hand 3---I would have raised all in on the turn; you have the nuts, why just call? If you chop the pot at the end with another K, so be it. If he somehow fills a boat with that last queen, that's just poker.....

[Nottom]

I'm no NL expert but heres my take on these hands.

Hand 1:
Taking a shot at the flop is fine, but when called you are going to be behind more often than not. Check behind on the turn and hope to catch your 2 outer. Since you bet you have to fold to the checkraise.

Hand 2:When you flop a set, your goal should be to get lots of money in the pot. You usually don't do that by calling, but in this case it worked out for you and your opponent went all-in. The problem is you forgot to call. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Hand 3: Reraise all-in on the turn, you are likely chopping but if not you need to get your money in while you have the nuts.

As for your poor start, $1.71 at a $5 buyin table is nothing. 363 hands is nothing. You need a lot more hands to really see if you are a winner or not.