please review

[darryl2172]

I just want input from other players on this hand i lost last night. I am wondering did I loose this pot because I failed to raise before the flop??


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Stage #22038584: Holdem No Limit $0.25 [2004-04-05 21:23:14]
Seat 1 - WRIST $20.64 in chips
Seat 4 - JL $128.55 in chips
Seat 5 - CHRISM68 $53 in chips
Seat 6 - DARRYL2172 $19 in chips
Seat 7 - DUBLEKNUT $34 in chips
Seat 8 - ERICNTX68 $33.15 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 5] ***
DARRYL2172 - Post small blind $0.25
DUBLEKNUT - Post big blind $0.50
WRIST - Post $0.50
DARRYL2172 - Pocket [2h,2d]
ERICNTX68 - Calls $0.50
WRIST - Checks
JL - Raises $0.50 to $1
CHRISM68 - Calls $1
DARRYL2172 - Calls $0.75
DUBLEKNUT - Folds
ERICNTX68 - Calls $0.50
WRIST - Calls $0.50
*** FLOP [9h,2c,4h] ***
DARRYL2172 - Checks
ERICNTX68 - Checks
WRIST - Checks
JL - Checks
CHRISM68 - Bets $1
DARRYL2172 - Raises $1 to $3.50
ERICNTX68 - Folds
WRIST - Folds
JL - Folds
CHRISM68 - Calls $2.50
*** TURN [9h,2c,4h,3c] ***
DARRYL2172 - Checks
CHRISM68 - Bets $7.50
DARRYL2172 - All-In(Raise) $7.50 to $14.50
CHRISM68 - Calls $7
*** RIVER [9h,2c,4h,3c,Kh] ***
CHRISM68 - Calls
DARRYL2172 - Calls
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($41.50:$41.50,$0) Rake ($2.05)
Board [9h,2c,4h,3c,Kh]
WRIST - Folded on the FLOP
JL - Folded on the FLOP
CHRISM68 - Total ($39.45) HI:($39.45)Straight, two to six [6c,5h - P:6c,P:5h,B:4h,B:3c,B:2c]
DARRYL2172 - HI:Three of a kind, twos [2h,2d - P:2h,P:2d,B:2c,B:Kh,B:9h]
DUBLEKNUT - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
ERICNTX68 - Folded on the FLOP

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[StevieG]

Personally, I would not have called the pre-flop raise with pocket 2s.

That call got 5-1 pot odds on a 7.5 to 1 shot at getting the lowest possible set on the flop. Not good value.

I doubt that I would even complete the bet for the 11-1 odds if JL had just limped in.

[LetsRock]

You'll get more responses in the micro limit forum.

Fold preflop. You're not getting the odds to make this draw. If you absolutely KNEW that you'd get a 2 on the flop, then yeah raising might have saved you the flop, but you won't catch me making this raise even with a field big enough to justify the call.

Slow playing the flop was a huge mistake. You may have gotten the straight draw to fold with a big enough bet, but it's not likely you would have bet that much (since you wanted to suck people in).

Bad pre-flop call + bad flop play + bad luck on the turn = bye-bye stack.

[blackaces13]

Use bisonbison's hand covertor. Just find a post by him and go to his profile there's a link to it there. Also, I don't know what that guy was talking about saying he may fold getting 11-1, that's inane. 5-1 is even fine because sets are all about implied odds, you don't need your 7-1 preflop because you'll be collecting bets the whole way after you flop a set. 5-1 is fine, trust me. Now go find that convertor, you'll thank me.

[Lexander]

From what I can tell, the winner of this hand was willing to play a weak hand preflop against a raise, call a raise on a gutshot draw and a backdoor draw, and then caught on the turn. Perhaps this was part of some devious strategy, but it looks like bad play that got rewarded to me.

I don't personally think you should raise preflop on your pair of 2's (if ever there was a pair desperate for a set, this is one), but the call makes sense to me. Your implied odds in a NL game are quite high (particularly since the winner is drawing mighty thin if he misses the turn), being at least 18-1 in most cases (your shortstack will attract bad callers).

[darryl2172]

I think the call before the flop was right, the table was very loose, most preflop raises were people raising with ace high, secondly i was in the sb so its only 2 bets for me to call with a pocket pair. I am second guessing my check raise after the flop, should i have raised more to try and push out the player with the straight draw?

[Lexander]

I am not an expert authority on NL play, but what I see is a loose player who absolutely wants to continue playing his weak draws. You would know better from having watched him throughout the hands. The real question in my mind is would he have called a bigger bet. If so, you should have made it. If he would have called an all-in, that is the best situation, if not, then the largest bet he will call. Not everyone would agree with this I suspect, but to me your opponent is doing everything he can to give you money and you should take it gladly. If anything, your bet might have been a bit too low, given that is gives him nearly the odds he needs (a byproduct of that pesky backdoor).

What makes the call of 22 worth it is primarily the mixture of the loose game, your position relative to the raiser and the fact that if things end up right you can take the whole stack of somebody. Against better players likely to call only with a better set, things aren't so good for the lowly 22.

The fact that the draw made is unfortunate for you, but also completely irrelevant to the situation. At the turn, the only hands the beat you are oversets and the 56 that happens to kill you, while many draws are still waiting in the wings. And you are pretty much pot-committed to call that last raise unless you are convinced you are beaten. That last point depends entirely on your read of your opponent, and given his willingness to play this weak draw, you might very well be ahead.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I would not have called the pre-flop raise with pocket 2s.

That call got 5-1 pot odds on a 7.5 to 1 shot at getting the lowest possible set on the flop. Not good value.

I doubt that I would even complete the bet for the 11-1 odds if JL had just limped in.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrendous advice for most NL games. Unless the stacks are really small or the raise is really big it is almost always correct to see the flop with a pocket pair.

[Nottom]

The biggest problem I see is you raise on the flop. The pot is something like $7 and you only raise $2.50. Make a good sized raise here. I'd raise at least $5 and would likely overbet the pot a bit (maybe a $10 bet) since people love to chase flush draws.

[Nottom]

Why does everyone want to fold to a tiny raise preflop? The rule of thumb is to call with a pair as long as the raise is less than 10% of you stack.

[StevieG]

[ QUOTE ]

This is horrendous advice for most NL games. Unless the stacks are really small or the raise is really big it is almost always correct to see the flop with a pocket pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, that goes to show how little a fixed limit player knows about no limit games. Chastisement accepted.

So what do you do once that pair develops into a set? What percentage of your stack, or more importantly your opponent's stack, should you go after?

OK, just saw it in the next post. Overbet the pot to push off the drawing hands.

Any general advice though with respect to how big that overbet should be? percentage-wise?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, that goes to show how little a fixed limit player knows about no limit games. Chastisement accepted.

So what do you do once that pair develops into a set? What percentage of your stack, or more importantly your opponent's stack, should you go after?

OK, just saw it in the next post. Overbet the pot to push off the drawing hands.

Any general advice though with respect to how big that overbet should be? percentage-wise?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a set your goal is to hopefully get all of your opponents stack. On most online NL games this isn't all that difficult if your opponent catches a bit of a hand (or has an overpair).

The only reason I mention overbetting the pot is because LL NL players love to draw to flushes. Therefore I tend to overbet when a flush is possible to make it as expensive for them as possible. It doesn't need to be much of an overbet, maybe $10 into a $8-9 pot. With smallish stacks like this I like to bet enough so that I can get all-in on the turn without making a huge overbet there or giving good oddds when I do so.

In a tougher game, you have to tread a bit more carefully in order to get payed off, but you also don't usually have to worry about being sucked out on by gutshots.

[StevieG]

thanks

[Lexander]

Nottom's advice about LL NL players putting too much into flushes is exactly right from what I have seen.

NL plays very differently from Limit. Your opponents will often not know that and the more you can punish them for that the better off you will be.