Newb getting hammered here - help

[Mors]

Hi, this is my first post so be gentle.
I'm a newb to online poker, but have played poker on and off for years. I've been playing online a couple of hours a day for a few months now. After losing all my money for the first month, I corrected my errors and started to fill up my account, but here's my two problems:

1. I seem to 'streak' - I will place/win for about 5/6 tournys in a row, BUT, then I will lose 8 or 9 on the trot! And not from what I'd call playing badly either.

2. I have just finished 4th three times in a row, by pushing my small stack in against a medium stack, preflop. I had the following hands and got beat with the following hands:
ME J10s beat by AA
ME KK beat by AA
Me JJ beat by AA

I being serious here, I'm not joking. I have pushed in 3 times in 4th place against a medium stack (I was under the gun) and been whipped 3 times and come up against AA THREE times in a row- I'm losing the will to live!

Now, after looking at these results long and hard, I've decided I'm getting beat because I'm a crap player. If I was a good player, I wouldn't be losing here, or getting these pathetic streaks. I need to start being more consistant.

My playing style is fairly tight straight off, gradually loosening up to very lose at the end (last 3). At the start I will only play monster hands, unless I get a cheap call on the button etc, then I'll play offsuit picture cards and suited connectors. Towards the end, I'll play virtually anything with a King or Ace, and most things suited or semi connected - if I can get a look in cheap enough.
I'll also play most pairs if its cheap to get in.

Now, here's where I think my main problem is - I find myself constantly going all in when I think I have the best hand. For example I've just been knocked out in 1oth place, I got a cheap call in middle position with KJs, the flop came KK2, with 2 diamonds, I knew I had the best hand, so I pushed all in. The next guy does the same, he has 2 diamonds, so obviously a diamond falls out on the river. The reason I went all in is because, I know that if i never went in, he would of. If I put in a big bet (say 3 or 4 times the pot) he would have gone all in. If I bet too small, I knew everyone with a flush draw would have called me and 9 out of 10 times I'd have been outdrawn. With what I believe to be a great hand - 3 kings.
The site where I play, virtually no one does big bets, say 4 or 5 times the pot - they go all in. This has made me start doing it. This is bad. But if I never went all in on a regular basis, I would never make the last 4, because I've tried it.


So can anyone help me or offer some advice please. I just don't know what to do. I did before think I was a decent'ish player, and would say I would place in 5 or 6 out of every 10 tournys I play. But now I'm sitting here thinking I'm no better than a 5yr old and don't want to play the game ever again, or push all in again as I'm expecting to see American Airlines smack me in the face /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Thanks

Mors

[sabre170]

In a tournament, you have to weigh the risk of elimination versus the desire to be paid for the best hand. You push small advantages less. On the bubble (when there are 4 left and 3 get paid), play more tight-passive.

You'll still lose against AA most of the time, but you don't have to play JTs. Instead, consider letting the other guys beat each other up.

Sabre170

[DrPhysic]

Ok, I'll be gentle.
It does not sound like you are a terrible player. Tight aggressive early and looser with 3 or less on the table sounds about right.
Questions:
Are you playing NLHE as it sounds?
What site are you on?
What books have you read?

My opinion answers to your post:
Everybody 'streak's. There is variance in poker. You have to have the bankroll, and the patience to wait out the bad ones.

The three hands you lost to AA: KK and JJ you did right. The JTs is a limit holdem hand, not a no limit hand. I would have bet it, but wouldn't have pushed, and would have folded to a push.

“I'm losing the will to live!” If AA three times in a row is getting to you, learn some patience. Read Zen and the Art of Poker. Get used to the fact that you lose to aces sometimes. Was your bet +ev? if it was and you lose, forget it, go on to the next one. Read the "fundamental theorem of poker" in Sklansky's TOP.

“My playing style...” OK. You indicate nothing about bluffing or stealing. Do you do so? Often enough to help build you stack, or at least cover the blinds you are paying?

Your KKK hand: he had a 35% chance of catching the flush. If you don't want to play him, can I have your seat? The more often you play that hand, the more you win. Quit being bothered by the one hand in 3 that HE wins. You bet it correctly. Thats all that matters. If you bet it correctly, you will win more than he does in the long run.

Re: going all in: I try not to go all in if a 5 or 6BB bet will accomplish the same thing. I still have some chips on the times that I lose. Sometimes you have to. If your xBB bet is more than 1/3 of your stack, you push instead, but if a smaller bet will accomplish the same thing, use it.

Impatience is the enemy. Winning 5 or 6 out of 10 tourneys, then losing a streak and getting upset with the results is too short term to be upset about. Look at your results over a month, or even 6.

Pokeraz made a very intelligent post on 10 Feb titled “20,000 Hand Checkup”. That’s enough hands to learn something about your results. At your rate of 2 hours a day, that’s about 5 months.

I highly recommend you read Zen… It is all about the art of patience and how it applies to poker.

Keep playing tight aggressive, solid poker and don’t let the bad beats get to you.

As indicated, my opinion, and I am not the most experienced player on the forum. I hope you also get answers from William, Stagemusic, Bozeman, Al, etc.

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mors]

Thanks a lot for the input. Here's some info to some of your questions:

Yep, I'm playing no limit.
I'm on the ladbrokes site (UK)
I've only read two books - Slansky's the Theory of Poker and Brunson's super system (which I found informative but a bit over the top aggressive).

I can understand a streak, but winning/placing a few then ALWAYS losing loads on the trot to me isn't streaking, it seems to much of a coincidence. Especially when it's identical everytime. I'm starting to think I just got lucky in the ones I placed.

When I pushed the J10s, I 'believed' he didn't have anything, from reading him earlier in the game - I wouldn't usualy ever push with that hand, I hate it.

I do bluff and steal, but try to avoid it, as they seemed to get called a LOT in the earlier rounds, later on I have success with it.

Yes you can have my KKK hand, and I'll have yours!

Medium bets always seem to instigate a push PF. If I bet medium after the flop, I usualy get called (not pushed) by a terrible draw hand or someone makes a set from rubbish, and that costs me big.

Sorry, a previous comment must have been badly worded - I've never won 6 out of 10 tourneys, just placed in that many. Best I've had was 3 wins in a row.

Also, when I'm 'on the bubble' it also seems I struggle to work out what hands to play. It seems I want to go back to my opening hands (AA, KK, QQ, AK etc) but when I do call and nothing comes on the flop and I face an allin bet - I fold. This soon gobbles up my stack when the blinds are 800/400.


I'm tempted to go upto 20+2 to see if these dodgy bad beats I've suffored disappear, but I'm worried I'll enter a vicious circle, to make up for me being a poor player. When I should be able to consistently perform at 10+1 as I'm sure a decent player could?

Thaks for any help

Mors

[DrPhysic]

KKK: SOLD to the highest bidder!

Send a pm to t_perkin about Ladbrokes. I am not familiar with the site, but I know Tim has played there a lot. He may be able to advise you re the kind of players to expect at different levels.

Placing in 6 out of 10 is good. How do you do in 100?

What hands to play when I am on a final table with 4, 5, or 6 players is one of my worst areas. I know how to play with 789 (TA), or 23 (LA) but inbetween is interesting for all of us I think. All about experience and learning to read the other players.

Books: I can speak only for the 14 I have read, which is a lot less than all of them. The ones that are on my "re-read until the pages fall out" list are:
TOP
HEPFAP
TPFAP
POP
Zen..

Doc

[TomCollins]

Seems like your problem is being a small stack on the bubble. You will get knocked out here fairly often. Lesson- become a bigger stack before the bubble!

[squiffy]

You answered your own question. There have been quite a few strong posts recently describing basic tournament play.

If you are going all in with second best hands against AA, then your requirements are probably too loose. And tighter play is probably required, in general. Keep posting hands and reading the advice here.

I am in the same boat. I need to tighten up. Though it is hard to do. Takes so much patience and discipline to wait for great hands before pushing all in. It's tempting to go to war with a second best hand. But over the long run, you'll bust out.

[Stoneii]

[ QUOTE ]
Instead, consider letting the other guys beat each other up

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Matthew Martens would refer to this as "social loafing". He suggests this can all too often benefit the short stack player whose getting aggressive while others shy away.

Interesting article

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/players/matthew-martens01.htm

G'Luck

stoneii

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going all in with second best hands against AA, then your requirements are probably too loose. And tighter play is probably required, in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

He went in 3 times with 4 left. Once with JTs, ok a little loose but sometimes ok depending on the circumstances. The other 2 were JJ and KK. You aren't suggesting these 2 be mucked with 4 left are you?

[DrPhysic]

Squiffy,
[ QUOTE ]
Though it is hard to do. Takes so much patience and discipline to wait for great hands..

[/ QUOTE ]

A good friend, whose advice I trust, recently told me "What gives professional poker players ulcers, is not the pressure of the game. It is the pressure of sitting at a table folding, and folding, and folding, and ....."

Doc

[Stoneii]

yeah, it's that last one isn't it.

Too often I'm....fold,fold,fold,f..f..f..foookit, raise /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[DrPhysic]

That's the one that always gets me. Whadda you mean you raised 5BB with KQo??????????????????? RUAN Idiot????????????

Sometimes I R.

Doc /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[squiffy]

see post by AleoMagus who apparently has success at this level. The results speak for themselves. He went in with worse hands.

[Prickly Pete]

I know I'm easily confused but I don't know what you're trying to say in this thread.

Earlier:

[ QUOTE ]
If you are going all in with second best hands against AA, then your requirements are probably too loose. And tighter play is probably required, in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I guess by that statement, that Squiffy thinks Mors is being too loose. Hence my question about folding JJ & KK.

Now:

[ QUOTE ]
see post by AleoMagus who apparently has success at this level. The results speak for themselves. He went in with worse hands

[/ QUOTE ]

Now you're saying be looser.

It's late in afternoon and I probably need a few beers. My guess is that we actually agree. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif So nevermind I guess.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Mors,

I'm a day late and a dollar short in replying, but anyway:

First, poker is inherently a game of streaks. It's a quasi-random system, and like any system with random events, you have to expect short-term clumping, both for good (rushes) and for ill (cold waves). It happens to everyone, and it happens no matter how well you play.

Second, the important thing about handling a cold wave is that you not let it affect how you play. It may be wise to let it affect whether you play, that is, at times you may need to take a break just to let the negative emotions go away. This is especially true of the cold wave is affecting how you play ... because that means you are on tilt and not playing your best poker.

Third, SuperSystem is a phemonemal book, but Doyle Brunson wrote the NL section for ring game play, and with experienced players in mind, and not for tournament play, and especially not for novices in tournament play. Trying to apply Doyle's style in SNGs will get you killed, plain and simple.

Fourth, you haven't been playing very long yet, so give yourself time to get used to the inherent swings in the game. You may know everything that's been written in this thread at an intellectual level, but you're not purely an intellectual animal. You're also an emotional animal, and the ability to take these streaks in stride is largely a function of experience. The more you ride out, the more you become confident that you can ride out the next one.

Cris

[sammiK7os]

Change sites. Party poker has a skin for European Players called Coral Eurobet Poker, you can use your switch card and the site has many more players and the games are much easier to win - I did this and have never looked back.

[Mors]

Thanks for the input people that have replied.
You are kinda bringing me round to expect these streaks, but I'm still dubious that there's not something I can do to counteract them. I'm sure you guys that are a lot better than me can do stuff to turn these things round, and instead of losing 6,7,8 on the row, can turn at least half of those into places.
One option I have if I start to streak is possibly become 'over tight' and just sit it out? I could just wait for a monster hand and hope to get some action? Instead of risking my class 2 hands (AKs AKo, QQ, JJ) I should only play the top 2? I have noticed in a lot of games where I've finished 4th, that there is always some idiot sitting next to me with a tiny stack, not even trying to win the thing, they are just hoping to ride out for 3rd place, or maybe get a miracle - should I take this person's shoes?
Also, where do you guys tighten up again? By that I mean, do you start to tighten up again with 5 people left, or do you wait untill you're on the bubble? This too would effect the hands I'm risking playing.
I know a lot of these questions are going to be answered by myself in time, with more experience, but at the moment I feel like an 'all or nothing' player, and I'd rather be mr consistent, than mr 'went out in 4th'.
I feel like I'm getting closer to being a better player, but getting my good hands beaten most times and going on a losing run over 5 games EVERY time is making me question if I'm doing the right thing.

Mors

[DrPhysic]

Tightening up to AA and KK only may be a bit extreme, but the advice I have read in most of the books is when you are on a bad streak be patient, wait for the cards, and play tight aggressive. Tighten up is the correct strategy.

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mors]

UPDATE:

I just played my 1st tourny for a few days, and I got down to the bubble on a weak stack ($1000 approx), with blinds 400/200, I got dealt A9s in the one but last position, so I pushed all in - guess what....The guy next to me turns over AA!! This is getting beyond a joke now /images/graemlins/frown.gif
FOUR times in a row.

Mors

[Mors]

UPDATE 2:
Just played another one, on the bubble in 3rd place. Blind 400/800, I get KK. Guy next to me limps in, he's in 2nd place. Flop comes J73. I put a single bet in, he raises me, I reraise him all in. He does that. So then he turns over J7 and I'm out! So here's a list of my last five tournys, of which ALL I've been knocked out on the bubble:

ME J10s beat by AA
ME KK beat by AA
ME JJ beat by AA
ME A9s beat by AA
ME KK beat by J7o


So this is normal then? This what happens im to expect on a regular basis?
These are the 'streaks' I'm on about that are destroying my account, and I know this will continue for another 3 or 4 games before I even place in one.
I'm pretty depressed really.


Mors

[Prickly Pete]

If you're going to be depressed over the results of 5 games, you may not be cut out for this. 5 games is a tiny sample and you can expect to run into much more hideous strings of beats that this. Just ask Daliman. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Mors]

You're not going to believe this, just went out in 7th place.
Blinds 200/400, guy with the same chips as me reraises me allin - I have AQs, he says 'good luck lol' then turns his cards over - AA.
I'd laugh if this was funny.
I've now lost SIX on the trot, beaten 5 of those time by AA.

Great

Mors

[William]

Right,
Another newbie who wants to get rich in no time!

Maybe it sounds rude, but your post sounds also rude to me.

Most of us that live of playing poker have worked on our game for years. If every newcomer won from the start, that wouldn't be fair would it?

Yep, you get what I am saying. These things take time. Long time, many ours at the tables or in front of your screen and much, much patience.
You already know how you have to play. Tight, then loose, then tight, etc.. and there are many good advices in this thread; but is that going to make you a better player overnight? Not a chance in the world. It takes time to apply what you have just learned, to adjust to the kind of game you are playing. 5 finishes in the bubble, that is nothing; what do you think? We have all experienced worse, much worse, and if that is all what it takes to make you lose the will to live, go ahead, jump out the nearest window, or quit poker, obviously you don't have what it takes.

We have to be realistic, if a few of us are going to make a lot of money from this game, there must be many, many more that lose, so the odds are you are going to be a fish for a long time before you switch sides. The odds are even bigger if the only thing you play are SNGs. That's like the kindergarden of poker. It may be fine for a few months, but if you are not willing to move on to ring games and start learning REAL poker, you'll be eaten alive.

Oh, I forgot, this was your first post and I should have been gentle.
Now you'll either quit poker or stop whinning and actually learn how to survive. Either way, you'll thank me one day.
And I didn't even get started with the patience aspect of the game.
We'll talk about that another time if you decide to keep playing.

And BTW, about those bad beats against AA. My advice? Keep away from AA. And if you ever want to exchange bad beat stories, let me know, I have about 5 millions of them...

And now if you will excuse me, I'll go back to my game. I'm only up 1300$ today, and I hate not making at least 2k every day...

William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
Just played another one, on the bubble in 3rd place. Blind 400/800, I get KK. Guy next to me limps in, he's in 2nd place. Flop comes J73. I put a single bet in, he raises me, I reraise him all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to get your money in pre-flop on this one. It's not a bad beat if you invite a call.

Martin

[DrPhysic]

The frightening thing is that I know William well enough, and have watched him play enough, to know that he is neither bragging nor exaggerating.

How long do I have to play to get to that level, did you say?

Doc

[DrPhysic]

Mors,
Another thought occurs, that might be beneficial. I don't remember you saying what level you are playing at.

It sounds like you may be playing at a level where a half dozen or 10 losses hurts the bankroll too much which is of course upsetting. You may be playing at a higher level than your bankroll can afford. ie: the downside of the variances are hurting you too much. Consider backing off a level until you build up the bankroll a little more. If you do a search on the subject, there are a number of good posts on this forum and tournament forum regarding the levels of tournament or sng you can afford to be playing with a given amount in the bankroll.

ie: If I have $500 in the account and lose a half dozen $10 SNGs, I can absorb the swing, learn from my mistakes, and go on. It hurts a heckofalot more if I have the same bankroll and lose a half dozen $50s.


Doc

[itsmarty]

[ QUOTE ]
I put a single bet in, he raises me, I reraise him all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

One more thought about the same hand: there's no such thing as a single bet in NL. Those buttons where they suggest an amount to you? Those are for suckers. You should be thinking of your NL bets in terms of current pot size.

Martin

[William]

LOL Doc,

You're probably the one who understands me best at this forum.

It is true that my biggest problem right now is that the debit card from my neteller account only allows to whithdraw 1000$ a day. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I also know that I am difficult to find at the moment /images/graemlins/wink.gif

It doesn't take long to get used playing at a higher level, but I will never say it enough. "Get away from the damn SNGs."
I know you should...

William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mors]

Right, ok, I'll reply to your well constructed reply, and try not to be offensive as it seems my other post was - I apollogise, and to anyone else that thought I was.

1.) I don't want to get rich in no time. I have at no point said I couldn't afford to do what I was doing or was depending onthis for my income. I respect you guys that are doing this for a living - it takes a lot of balls in my opinion. All I want to do is learn how to play better poker, I feel I was making mistakes, so I asked you guys if you thought I was and if there was any pointers to rectify it, you've managed to turn that into that I want to get rich quick? Odd.

2. Just because you've played the game for years doesn't give you a god given right to think your poker is worthy of money and no one else's is. If it was I'd encourage my elderly neighbours to play for me.

3. "You already know how to play" -Isn't that a bit of a contradiction? I don't know how to play, and only more and more practise will do that. Just because I can play tight and lose doesn't mean I have any of the skills to be consistant.

4. Don't worry, it takes more than losing money to break me, so unfortunatly you wont be seeing me on the news dead. In the country I live 'losing the will to live' means getting a pi$$ed off at what's happening, not what you think it does.

5. I know you're a pro and better than me at playing poker, I don't doubt it for a minute, but playing it something I enjoy doing and would like to get better at, I have no intention of moving up to the echlons of the game that you seem to play at, I'm happy playing around the level (money) I am playing. I'd rather get a bit better at the tournys I'm playing in before I try and conquer a ring game, yes they do phase me a little at the moment. People going allin virtually every hand baffles me.

6. I'm not whining.

7. I doubt I'll thank you one day. Actually, I know I wont.

8. I don't class those hands bad beats, the other person had a better hand and better timing.

9. I'm sorry I interupted you making vast amounts of cash, but if I did, why did you bother posting in this thread, seem spretty pointless seeing as you've wasted your own time and money and not helped me in slightest.


To conclude, I'm not as good at poker as you or 99% of the people that frequent this board, I'm just asking for your help/advice, of which you provided neither.

Thanks/sorry

Mors

p.s
@DrPhysic, I was playing 10+1's and 20+2. And I know these are girls tournaments before you say it William.

[tripdad]

JJ and KK are easy push-in hands when you are small stack. other players never give credit for small stack having a hand and will frequently call with any ace.

incidentally, JTs is a better hand against AA than is JJ or KK, though pushing is questionable, depending on HOW SMALL your stack is. i'm probably not even playing there unless i only have 2 BB or 3 max. any more and you gotta dump.

cheers!

[William]

you've wasted your own time and money and not helped me in slightest.

Funny tho, in a way I was hoping I was, but if you think that I didn't, then I guess you can't read between the lines. A quality any good poker player should master.

Stick to the advice other posters give you. They are easy to understand and make sense.

It doesn't really matter what level you play at. What matters is that you enjoy playing. Something you obviously are not doing.

Good luck to you,
William

[DrPhysic]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably the one who understands me best at this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I do, it is because I am old enough to appreciate and learn from my elders (regardless of their age), and because I study the people I know I can learn from. Yourself among a very few.

[ QUOTE ]
"Get away from the damn SNGs."

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you will get me regularly into NLHE ring games, but right now I am repairing the earlier damage to my bankroll playing HU and 9seat SNGs, and learning much about reading players from the HU games.

Doc /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[DrPhysic]

[ QUOTE ]
DrPhysic, I was playing 10+1's and 20+2. And I know these are girls tournaments...

[/ QUOTE ]

May be so, but I play at 10+1's and 20+2, and $.50/$1.00 NLHE ring. I look forward to getting the bankroll built up to the point that I can play with Wm, Cris, Stagemusic, and some of my other friends at higher levels.

If you are playing on Stars, PM me your playing name. We are playing the same games.

Doc /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Mors]

Just thought I'd let you guys know, I had a crack at 20+1 - played 5 and placed in 5. 1x1st 1x2nd 3x3rd. This is either the streak swinging back for a few games or the 20's get different players that I do better against.

Mors

[sammiK7os]

Mors congratulations on your current wins, but you honestly can't imply anything from a sample of 5 tournaments be it wins or losses. Be glad about your wins, track all your tournament places and dont start trying to make sense of your data untill you have at least 200 tournament places recorded.

Good luck. /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Stagemusic]

William.

I read your response to Mors and then read his. Obviously a little longer "lurking" period would have been helpful before he posted. There are a few of us who really do understand what you were saying. I will try to put this in terms that maybe he can understand.

Quit whining. Poker is a game of large numbers and large variance. When you have a few years under your belt and you can post 1000's of hands where AA has shown up. You will have a trend. Guess what? That trend will be just about right at the standard too!!! Learn how to play the game. Read the books. Read the posts. Be honest with yourself and your ability. Play at your ability and bankroll level. Invest in yourself (buy books). There that covers it.

Damn, now I am tired. I must go eat some biscuits and gravy and read some more.

Oh yeah, my PS crashed and I still owe you $10. Soon as my ISP gets off it's dead ass I will get it to you. (I am on 2+2 from work right now). /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now, how the hell do you play stud again? /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
and dont start trying to make sense of your data untill you have at least 200 tournament places recorded.

Good luck. /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't start trying to make sense until you have 200 places recorded, or 200 tourneys played recorded. I'm just getting started and have a small sample (not worthy of posting) and was wondering when to make some sense of my numbers.
Ben