AQ hand

4 limpers to me


i raise from BB with AQs , all call 5 to flop


flop Q 7 5 rainbow 1 of my suit


i check, checked to LP who bets, i call * i saw that the guy to my left would call* , UTG calls

3 to turn


turn J i have 4 to a flush now


checked to LP who bets, i raise, UTG folds, LP thinks awhile "hmph?" and calls.


river 3


i bet, UTG calls


i show...UTG stares a long moment and mucks...


this was an interesting session...i hardly had to showdown any hands. i think this one, and 2 others was all....


b

I hate the call on the flop. The pot is large and you must make anyone who flopped a pair pay 2 bets to hit their 5 outer. The whole reason you check is to get someone to bet so you can wipe everyone out and take control of the hand. Mission accomplished. Proceed as planned.

I was just discussing this in the general hold'em. Isn't it true that in most LL games, with people more inclined to call two bets anyway, it's better to wait until the turn to raise. Most people are less likely to call two big bets rather than two small bets and even if they do, the mistake is larger. This is an area that has troubled me in the past, so please correct me if I'm off.

when the flop bet came back to me, there was only 3 players...me, UTG and the bettor...couple guys folded between me and the bettor...


sorry i forgot that...


/images/smile.gif


b

Bern buddy,


You have this problematic trait of either posting vague hand detail (Jxx on the flop, x on the turn), or incorrect hand detail. Please do your best to remember exactly how things occur in the future, otherwise you cripple anyone trying to give you feedback.

The key here is that bernie is in the blind. There are two important points, I think.


1. When a person raises out of the blinds, even the fish put him on a big hand. By checkraising, not only do you force the field to call a double bet, but you announce "I had a big hand preflop, and I still have a big hand posflop". AQ is the minimum that even the fish will put you on here. Most will think AA or QQ by checkraising.


2. Since he is out of position, and there are a few straight draws out there, giving a free card on the turn is problematic. Not only does raising clear out at least a few of the marginal hands, it also lets bernie keep the momentum and bet the turn. Since he almost has to bet the turn anyway (I think his turn check was a poor choice.), then he may as well get the money in the pot now.


The thing about wiping out the field on the turn works best when you have position on the flop bettor, and can bet in case he checks.

bernie,


Seems pretty risky to check here, no? Don't you think a BB raise signals big hand, which might make people hole up on the flop? Maybe you saw something that indicated otherwise. Anyway--I would c/r once someone does bet, no need to play this hand with more than one player, who will certainly call your checkraise. When you check again on the turn I think you are taking a BIG risk--did you know this guy did not put people on hands and just bet whenever he was checked too? You would have tons of egg on your face if he checked the turn--especially if he rivers 2 pair.


Worked out for you but I think you risked quite a bit. I would have played it much much differently.


KJS

i hear ya...im tryin...


after i posted it, i went and did something, and the thought occurred to me. it was a key piece of info as to why i played it that way...if a guy calls between me and the bettor then im raising the flop. but i went for the overcall to get the the UTG...


im not afraid of any draws here, and with an LP betting, hed likely bet the turn. which he did.


b

"Don't you think a BB raise signals big hand, which might make people hole up on the flop"


they tend to hole up more-so if an A hits. not a Q. if an A hits, id be more inclined to just bet out, let em fold, gt to the next hand. they get real timid when the A hits.


this was a little more aggressive table than normal. a couple of tourney guys who busted out early and were steamin a little. i was pretty sure the guy was gonna bet the turn if i checked to him.


i also know they probably put me on AK on the flop since most on this table wouldve played AK the same way from what i saw a couple times earlier. unless they saw me play AK differently. which i wouldve. this was relativley early in the session. about 45 mins in.


ciao


b

NH, would you raise the turn unless you caught a flush draw to go? Would you check/call the flop without the back-door flush potential (which gives you 14 pleasant cards on the turn as opposed to five)? What is you action if you have no backdoor opportunities and there is two of another suit there instead?


I am also making a case for perhaps not raising the turn? The pot is 7.5BB once flop bettor bets it, the player behind is very likely to drawing to 1, 2, 3 or 4 outs. If lucky he has got 5 of em. I know he may be best of course, but then you don't want him in there anyway. In this situation, you'd like him to call at 8.5:1 odds. Might even result in double pay-off on the river??


Something to consider at very least. You have a hand good, thinking Hold'em opponents hate being in trouble against. Top pair/nut kicker gives another top pair just three outs, as opposed to five if you have 'just a high pair'. Your suit covers you as well and increases further their few outs. Don't let them off so easily. Keep them in on your perfect situation and rather keep the losses down when behind.


Having said that, I'd probably play it the same way as you if I had just called the flop, but I am just getting experimental here. I think my alternative turn play solution may harm the river play to some extent (it's certainly tougher to plan check-raising 'just' tp/tk on the river and you run a huge risk at giving a free showdown - playing it the alternative way, I'd bet out on the river, at least against two opponents).


lars