question

[coach]

What odds are most important to a player?What question do you ask yourself threw out the hand regaurding odds? How do you use odds to put someone on a hand.I feel iam missing the math part off the game all i use are pot odds for drawing hands. any comments are thanked.
coach

[LetsRock]

I don't use "odds" to put someone on a hand. I use pot odds and implied odds to determine wether or not I should be involved in a hand.

There are some who are able to place percentages on what likliness each hand is that a plyer may be holding out of a selected set of reads. While I'm sure this is useful to some, it's way too complicated for me to start trying do these kinds of calculations during a game.

My decision making on this situation includes the following thoughts:

"How many different hands beat me?"
"Did he play his hand as if he had one of those hands?"
"If he did, is the pot big enough to make a crying call?"
"Does he like to bluff?"
"Who's left to act and will he raise?"

If I have a reasonably strong hand, I'm usually going to see the hand that beats me if the pot is big enough, and there's a reasonable chance that my hand is good.

Of course, my method is pretty feel oriented ("reasonable", "big enough"), and those who can calculate the odds of him having one of the hands that beat me and the bluff percentage are making decsions based on "proper odds", but I rarely feel that it is that close of a call - my hand either has a reasonable chance of winning or it doesn't. And the pot is usually big enough to justify a crying call if I'm still in it at the end.

[coach]

thanks rock

[pretender2k]

I think I do it pretty much the same although I do find there are days when I seem to have a really good read on the other players. I think this comes with experience because it seems to happen more with time. I get a kick out of people that play B&M that tell me they don't like playing online because you can't read people online. One that comes to mind is a guy at work that will drive three hours and pay upto a $7 dollar rake at a casino in Illinois. I may not be able to read people as well online but I don't think it costs me as muchas it would to pay the extra rake. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[daryn]

coach, work on your english first, then you can tackle pot odds

[RydenStoompala]

I agree the odds are only part of how you put someone on a hand. If you're up against a math head then you can read him/her by betting patterns while they read you for the way they play. It's subtle, but the good odds players have an advantage in many situations while the agressive psychology experts are also formidable. It's best to have some of both and not to go to extremes. Play variance is just as important as always betting with the best of it because 1) there is really no way to be certain you have the best of it without the nuts and 2) the nut hand can become the dog on the turn or the river.

[Mangatang]

I don't think anyone has answered your question yet.

When starting out, I think these are the main odds you need to know and use:

4:1 for 4-flush
5:1 for an open-end straight draw
11:1 for a gutshot straight draw

All of these are the odds to complete your hand on the next card (after the flop in Hold'em). It's easy to calculate the odds when playing limit poker, just count the bets that go into the pot (divide by two when it gets to the expensive street). If you have those pot odds at the time of your play, its worth a call.

I will usually raise for value if I have double the pot odds listed above.

When playing at the low-limits, especially when still learning, it's best to just play straight-forward. Bet/raise when you think you have the best hand. Call/bet when you have the pot odds to draw to the best hand. Anything else, get out.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
I will usually raise for value if I have double the pot odds listed above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising for value has nothing to do with how much money is in the pot.

[Mangatang]

Raising for value has nothing to do with how much money is in the pot.

Of course it does. If there is a bet to me, and the pot is laying me say 12:1 (when I have a nut flush draw), I can raise for value here. It's a value raise not because I think I have the best hand right now, but because I will make more money by raising. It will be a winning proposition (in the long run) whether I call or raise here, but I will make more money if I raise. Therefore, I'm raising for value.

If I raised while only getting 5:1, it would be for reasons other than value (free card, deception, etc.)

[PseudoPserious]

I disagree, Mangatang.

In my mind, you raise for value with a draw when you expect to get more callers than the odds against your draw. In other words, you're making money for every dollar that you put in the pot ON THIS ROUND.

For example, with a 4:1 flush draw, you'll raise for value if there's bettor and 3+ limpers, no matter how much money is in the pot.

If there aren't enough callers, you're losing money on each additional dollar that goes in the pot, even though the overall pot size makes calling a profitable play.

To see this, let's say that you're heads-up on the turn with the nut flush draw (we'll call it 4:1 to make the math easier) and there are 100 BB in the pot. Your opponent bets 1 BB.

(a) You call. There are 102 BB in the pot, of which you have 20% equity. You spent 1 BB to see the next card. The profit on your call is (102 * .2) - 1 = 19.4 BB.

(b) By your argument, you'd 'raise for value' here. Your opponent just calls. The pot is now 104 BB. You have 20% equity. You spent 2 BB to see the next card. Your profit by raising is (104 * .2) - 2 = 18.8 BB.

(Note that both calling and raising are +EV plays, but calling is the better play.)

(c) To really see the fallacy of your argument, let's assume that you raise and, instead of just calling, your opponent re-raises. Since the pot is now even bigger, by your argument you should again 'raise for value'. Your opponent re-raises again. This continues until you've both put 50 BB in the pot. Pot size: 200 BB. Your equity: 20%. You spent 50 BB to see the next card. The EV of your action: (200*.2) - 50 = -10. Apparently, by 'raising for value' multiple times, you've turned a profitable situation into a losing situation.

So, to sum up: 'raising for value' means that your equity in the sum of everyone's call is larger than what it cost you to raise.

PP

[Homer]

Nottom is right.

Pot size is important for determining whether you have odds to chase.

Betting odds are important for determining whether you should jam a draw.

Say you have Qs Js on a As 8s 2c board. You are heads-up and the pot contains 1000 bets. A straightforward player bets (in other words, he has an Ace). You should obviously at least call, as you are getting 1001:1 pot odds, and are ~2:1 against making your flush by the river. Now the question is should you just call or should you raise for value. Since you are 2:1 against getting there by the river, you need to getting at least 3:1 in "betting odds" (in other words, you need at least 3 opponents) to profitably jam. In this situation, you have only 1 opponent, so you just call.

Now say you have 8 opponents and the pot is empty. The first player bets and everyone calls to you in last position. What do you do? You are getting 8:1, so you should at least call based on pot odds. However, you should raise insteaad, since you are getting 8:1 in betting odds and are 2:1 against getting there by the river. Notice that the pot is substantially smaller, yet you should raise instead of call.

-- Homer

[Mangatang]

I stand corrected. Very good explination.

I knew (even though I didn't say this earlier) that you don't want to raise if it will knock players out, but I never thought about it any more than that.

I learn something more on here everyday. Thanks.

[Your Mom]

This is an awful post.

[Homer]

The issue has already been resolved. Your post serves no purpose other than to bash Mangatang.