2+2 Pre-Flop

[SomeName]

I have noticed that many of the two plus two posters in the pot and no limit forum are always so concerned with preflop play. Blablablablabla you shoulda folded kq suited in early Blablabla. Maybey im just lucky, but to be honest it doesnt seem to matter to me whether i play 10% or 50% of hands in NL or PL holdem (i probably win the most per hour if im playing somewhere around 35-40%). Unless you are calling big raises or making them yourself pre-flop play is not the discussion worthy part of the hand. Are all of these posters weak-tight? or am i too loose for my own good?

[SevenStuda]

I don't know where you come off saying that pre-flop play is not discussion worthy. I'd like to see your results. If you don't mind, please post a running blog of your results, at least for the next 1000 hours. And only your Gyno knows if you're too loose for your own good.

[CrisBrown]

Hi SomeName,

I agree that most of the money in NLHE is won or lost on the flop, turn, and river. However, I think most of the advice here is geared toward novice players, and in that regard we generally tend to lean toward conservatism pre-flop, because novice players don't have the player- or hand-reading skills to play marginal hands profitably.

So a lot of posters will write "you should fold XY pre-flop" and omit the implicit "unless you know how to play that hand profitably." That means knowing how to play the hand on any kind of flop, against any style of opponent.

That's why some posters will say things like "you can play small pairs (for set value), or suited connectors (for two pair or better) from late position." The parentheticals give a basic, albeit conservative, plan for what flops you want to play out, with the implication that you'll fold if you don't get the flop you want.

Yes, experienced, winning players can play more kinds of hands profitably, and in more situations. They're less at the mercy of the cards, and that's why they can and do win more consistently than the rest of us. But with the high percentage of novices reading here, most posters try to err on the side of caution and conservatism, and that's why you see more focus on pre-flop starting requirements vs. post-flop strategy and tactics.

Cris

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I typically play 35% or so of hands in ring games, but much tighter in tournaments.

I suppose the fixation is due to the extreme importance of preflop play. However, I kinda agree with you in that the most interesting decisions are usually made on the flop and turn.

al

[jdl22]

For me it's crucial because I'm a new player with a lot to learn. By playing tight preflop and not playing hands that can get me into trouble by making second best hand I am much better off.

While I still have a fairly insignificant number of hands played, tightening up has turned me from break even to a winner. I was playing the type of numbers you describe preflop and both bleeding chips like crazy and losing a lot of big pots with second best hand. I hope to eventually get to a level where I am able to recognize when I could be in trouble and avoid traps, but I'm not there yet. For now I'll happy avoid trouble hands and show a perhaps not maximized profit.

[BradleyT]

What kind of stakes are you playing where you get to limp in to that many pots with so much cheese?

[ALL1N]

You replicate my own sentiments.

[SomeName]

i play every limit of pl or nl that is availible on pokerstars partypoker and paradise poker.

[Lost Wages]

[ QUOTE ]
i play every limit of pl or nl that is availible on pokerstars partypoker and paradise poker.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you play every limit? If you are good enough to beat the high limits then you should not waste you time with the low limits. If you are not good enough to beat the high limits then obviously you should not be playing them.

Lost Wages

[SomeName]

i dont play the lowest limits, but i also dont always play the highest limits. I pick the best games from the top few tiers and play those.

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
i dont play the lowest limits, but i also dont always play the highest limits. I pick the best games from the top few tiers and play those.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you mean is " you take a shot at the high limits when you have some money and the rest of the time, when you're broke(probably because you played at the high limits) you play at the low limits"

In other words, you're not a very good player... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[gavrilo]

Hey There's nothing wrong with playing 400NL when a 600NL doesn't look good. I don't like your post. You don't know where he stands results wise, you have no basis here.

[ML4L]

Hey Some,

As someone who has been accused of "weak-tight" play, here are some of my thoughts:

1) Not limping with a lot of hands is tight. I see nothing weak about it. Folding KK to a raise rather than playing back would be weak-tight. Folding QJs UTG is just tight.

2) As has been mentioned, most of the times that someone advises a player to make a fold that is on the tightish side, the advice is directed toward a beginner who doesn't yet know how to stay out of trouble and/or make the maximum from his hands. Until a player plays very well postflop, the biggest secret to winning poker is tight play before the flop.

3) The number/mix of hands that you play should be a function of the particular table and how it is playing. Sometimes, it would be wise to play around 10% of hands; others, up to 50%. Thus, as you imply, there is no "proper preflop strategy" for big-bet. Instead, there ARE crucial strategic concepts (eg implied odds, position relative to a raiser) that should be used to evaluate a preflop situation.

4) Along these lines, sound preflop play is ABSOLUTELY imperative in big bet poker. It's just that "sound" is more subjective than in limit poker. Take Matt Flynn's recent hand where he called a raise with JTo and says that he would have called with any two cards. Anyone who responds to his post telling him to tighten up doesn't understand the game. This is because of the REASONS that Matt called the raise; he found himself in a situation where he felt playing the hand was profitable. Any time that there is haggling about preflop play, it is because one poster does not view a situation as profitable, considering all of the available information. The key is to be THINKING about the correct things and being a good judge of how to a play a hand given the situation.

In one specific hand that I remember, Jay limped in EP with ATo and got in a tough spot postflop. In my response, I said that I didn't think that it was profitable to limp with that hand up front. He replied that he thought it was profitable for him, and we never really settled the issue. I still think I'm correct; he still thinks that he's correct. But, we both realize that it's not a huge issue; each of us was just giving our view on the profitability of the situation. Nothing wrong with a little discussion...

I feel like I'm being redundant, so I'll stop. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at. Players who play poker well don't think about preflop play rigidly. But, they DO think about it, and proper play before the flop is as important as on any other street.

ML4L

PS Although I don't agree with your point, Some, I think that it's ridiculous that people are finding it to be a reason to attack you and deem you to be a losing player. What do y'all know...?

[turnipmonster]

a lot of good points, I'll add one. personally, most of the "you should have folded preflop" advice on here is mostly for positional reasons. a lot of posters, myself included, feel that there is a set of hands that is profitable in position, and expensive out of position. for me, that set of hands definitely includes offsuit face cards.

--turnipmonster

[CrisBrown]

Hi ML,

Excellent reply. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
In one specific hand that I remember, Jay limped in EP with ATo and got in a tough spot postflop. In my response, I said that I didn't think that it was profitable to limp with that hand up front. He replied that he thought it was profitable for him, and we never really settled the issue. I still think I'm correct; he still thinks that he's correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may be one of those cases where both of you can be correct, depending on the games you play, your different styles, etc. And this is something that can sometimes be overlooked in discussions of the "correct" way to play any given hand.

John Juanda and Gus Hansen play very different styles of poker. Both are very successful. I think if John tried to play Gus' style, he'd probably lose. And I think Gus would probably lose if he tried to play John's style. Each has found a style that he can play well, and learned the skills necessary to make that style profitable for himself.

But without knowing either, I'd suspect that both began by learning very fundamental, ABC poker. And that is what we generally talk about here.

Cris

[SomeName]

Actually i havent been broke in 2 years. I started out with 100$ and now i have about 30K online as well as having cashed out very large amounts. I dont see any need to play 3/6 blinds with all solid players when i can go play 2/4 with the fish.

[SomeName]

I agree with what you said here. I wasnt trying to say everyone should play any two in any position, I was just trying to say that people who make blanket statements such as "you shouldnt play A10 in early position" are wrong. Many of the replies to posts on here try to give a cookie cutter action to every hand, and this just isnt what poker is all about.

[ML4L]

Hey Some,

[ QUOTE ]
I was just trying to say that people who make blanket statements such as "you shouldnt play A10 in early position" are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your point, but again, my post to Jay said that he shouldn't play ATo in early position GIVEN ALL THE PERTINENT INFORMATION (ie the game was typical Party $100, he plays well postflop, etc.). I don't understand why you can single out preflop as the one street that there is no cut-and-dried correct play. What about 72o in early position...?

[ QUOTE ]
Many of the replies to posts on here try to give a cookie cutter action to every hand, and this just isnt what poker is all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, even though big bet poker allows people to make "artistic" plays, there are some situations that are very clear-cut before the flop. Most of them involve raised pots, which you excluded from your initial statement, but the fact still remains that, just like any other street, one particular action can be clearly negative EV (again, GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES; you won't find any decent big-bet player writing a structured strategy for preflop play the way that S&M did for limit).

ML4L

[SomeName]

This is just one example, but i went to Las Vegas a few weeks ago, and had my first ever experience playing live NL. The only games they had offered in the Bellagio were a 2/4 blinds 200 max buyin game (similar to party poker) and a 10 20 blinds ulimited buyin game. I didnt feel like playing with 4 or 5 thousand so i just played in the 2/4 blinds 200 buyin game. In the one session i was in most of the players in the game were your typical tight NL players, so I decided to be the table captain. In one stretch I raised every single hand for about an hour or so(this would include such hits as 86o utg j6 second in etc). At first people wouldnt call me without the nuts, but after some time people were moving all in against me with as little as middle pair. I ended up winning about 1200$ in this game in about 5 hours. In this gave versus these players it was completly irrelevant what two cards were in my hand. Obviously this strategy couldnt be pulled off by most people, but I have had alot of practice in marginal situations online playing shorthanded and vs tight opposition. Is it possible I was lucky? sure but do I think so? no.

I also played one other session in the same game in Las Vegas where i played AK poker. Most of the players in this particular game were tourists or drunk. Everyone was playing a ton of hands and calling alot of raises. I played conservitive ABC poker and won 900$ in about 6 hours.

These two stories should show my point. No i dont think 72 off is profitable in early position, however if someone did play it in early position with the right image vs deep enough money or scared enough money then it could be correct.

(this concept is not unlike the post where Matt Flynn called the raise with "two cards" which happened to be J10)

[1800GAMBLER]

Reread your thread in 20 000 hands time.

[Ben]

Well put.

[MrFroggyX]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just one example, but i went to Las Vegas a few weeks ago, and had my first ever experience playing live NL. The only games they had offered in the Bellagio were a 2/4 blinds 200 max buyin game (similar to party poker) and a 10 20 blinds ulimited buyin game. I didnt feel like playing with 4 or 5 thousand so i just played in the 2/4 blinds 200 buyin game. In the one session i was in most of the players in the game were your typical tight NL players, so I decided to be the table captain. In one stretch I raised every single hand for about an hour or so(this would include such hits as 86o utg j6 second in etc). At first people wouldnt call me without the nuts, but after some time people were moving all in against me with as little as middle pair. I ended up winning about 1200$ in this game in about 5 hours. In this gave versus these players it was completly irrelevant what two cards were in my hand. Obviously this strategy couldnt be pulled off by most people, but I have had alot of practice in marginal situations online playing shorthanded and vs tight opposition. Is it possible I was lucky? sure but do I think so? no.

I also played one other session in the same game in Las Vegas where i played AK poker. Most of the players in this particular game were tourists or drunk. Everyone was playing a ton of hands and calling alot of raises. I played conservitive ABC poker and won 900$ in about 6 hours.

These two stories should show my point. No i dont think 72 off is profitable in early position, however if someone did play it in early position with the right image vs deep enough money or scared enough money then it could be correct.

(this concept is not unlike the post where Matt Flynn called the raise with "two cards" which happened to be J10)

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha!

I had one like you on my NL$50 table yesterday! He played nearly every hand always raised if no one had raised before him.. (With hands like 58o 36s and so on).
He was going from $50 to $200 then lost everything.. Re-bought 3 times and then he left the table when everyone was laughing at him.. (He was quite funny in the chat.. he talked like he was a real poker pro.. lol)

Anyway, agree with Jay:
Come back when you have 20 000 hands and tell us your result! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[SomeName]

how many years would it take to play 20000 hands? I have been consistantly winning for 3 years now. I only play about 15 hours a week so as a conservitive estimiate 15*50*3 = 2250 hours. I normally play 3 or 4 games at once so i would i get at least 100 hands an hour thats 100 * 2250 = 225000 hands. I use a program called StatKing to keep track of my wins/losses, but only started that a few months ago. In the last 3 months i am up around 30K but those have been decent months. Is this enough?

[1800GAMBLER]

I'll assume you play about $100 NL since you are asking this.

You're earning 10k per 60 hours. So that's $167/hour or at most $40/hour/table assuming you always play 4 tables, which you said you don't. So you should be earning 44BBs/100 hands in the $100.

I think you should be spending more time writing a book than asking us questions that someone of your level of winning should already know the answer to.

[SomeName]

If you read the rest of the thread you would realize that i was using a rhetorical question to prove the validity of my own argument.

[The Gift Of Gab]

It's much easier to make money with trash in live games than online, especially if you read people well. I think it's easier to get away with this on Stars, Paradise, and Prima, and harder on Ultimate Bet and Party (at least till the money gets deeper.)

If you're really playing 50% overall you're almost certainly losing some money on the worst, though you might be able to make up for this by using your image well.

[SomeName]

I dont always play that high of a percantage, and in fact hardly do, I was just trying to make the point that it is proffitable sometimes.

[The Gift Of Gab]

Fair enough. I think some people misunderstood you.

Against a few players I'll play every hand, even for a raise. Only in live games, though...online no-limit sucks.

[ML4L]

Hey Some,

Again, you and I are almost completely on the same page here. Nobody is going to read your Bellagio example and say, "86o UTG?! That's AWFUL!!" Doing what you did was clearly profitable, given the situation. And again, as I mentioned in my original post, Matt Flynn's JTo hand illustrates a good play, given the situation.

My point is that you cannot single out preflop as the one street that plays differently from every other street. What you did is not unlike semi-bluff raising a flop; you were representing a hand other than the one that you had, and the majority of the equity was going to come from others folding, either before or after the flop.

Similarly, there are some plays (again, I'm primarily referring to calling rather than raises) that stink, before and after the flop. Calling a pot-sized bet out of position with bottom pair generally stinks. Calling in early position with a hand like ATo generally stinks. Are there times when it may be correct? Perhaps. But, that doesn't mean that someone who advises another player to consider folding in that spot is "weak-tight." Generally speaking, it is good advice. Just because making that mistake isn't as costly as making a loose call on more expensive streets does not make it acceptable.

The same can be said for Matt Flynn's play. Is it smart to coldcall raises with JTo? No. Would I be "wrong" if I gave that as general advice? No. Matt Flynn is a world-class big-bet player. He can profitably makes plays such as this one on occasion. Again, he REASONED his call properly.

That's all I was trying to point out. So, I think that's all for me.

ML4L

[SomeName]

Hey M,

Good argument and good post.