Middle Pairs

[SkinnyElvis]

I'm wondering how people approach middle pairs. If there For example, say there are 3 opponents, you hold 8h7h and the board is 10s 8c 2h? If someone raises the pot, do you fold? What about 1/3rd of the pot? What if you're in the big blind middle or late position. Would you raise an unraised pot in this scenario? Thoughts?

Thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif
skinnyelvis

Thoughts

[CrisBrown]

Hi skinny,

I think this is a case where the better play really depends on your skill level. Doyle Brunson talks about this at some length in the NL section of Super Systems (pp. 496-8). Basically, Doyle's says he will fold here unless: (a) he was the last pre-flop raiser, in which case he will almost always bet/raise at the flop; or, (b) the implied odds are very good, that is, his opponent has a deep stack and will pay him off if he hits a winner.

Daniel Negreanu had this to say about it on the World Poker Tour website (http://www.worldpokertour.com/players_lounge/index.php):

[ QUOTE ]
"At times you may have someone tell you something like 'Never call a bet with a pair that's not top pair: either raise or get out.' Advice like this will get you into lots of trouble. There is nothing wrong with calling with even bottom pair on the flop and proceeding cautiously from there. If you're waiting to flop top pair or better every time, you'll find yourself doing a whole lot of waiting and very little winning."

[/ QUOTE ]

But most novice and even average players don't have the player- and hand-reading skills to handle the "proceeding cautiously from there" part of Negreanu's advice. And if you don't have those skills, the "calling even with bottom pair" can cost you a lot of money.

This is another case where more experienced players can profitably play a hand in a way that will get novice or average players crushed, and you need to adopt the best strategy that is within your means to apply.

Cris

[SevenStuda]

If you're playing pot-limit or no-limit, those are exactly the type of hands that you want to try and stay away from. It's always tough to know where your at with a flop like that. Middle pair with no kicker is not the hand you want to play defense with.

[eggzz]

Right, especially in your situation where hitting two pair starts to straighten up the board for your opponent(s).

[BradleyT]

Just get out of that pot - it didn't hit you.

[tewall]

DN and Brunson are addressing completely different games, games where players think about what they're doing and typically have 2 or maybe 3 players seeing a flop. With 3 or more opponents, I don't think calling with bottom or middle pair will be a money winner, even if you have very good card-reading skills. Do you disagree?

[CrisBrown]

Hi tewall,

[ QUOTE ]
With 3 or more opponents, I don't think calling with bottom or middle pair will be a money winner, even if you have very good card-reading skills. Do you disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that calling with second or third pair in this situation is definitely a mistake. You certainly don't have a good enough hand to slowplay, and "follow the leader" can get really expensive in this kind of pot.

However, there are times when raising with second or third pair will be +EV. This depends on your opponents and your reads, obviously. But, for example, if the bettor is a player with a deep stack, and whom you feel you can read and control pretty well, raising with second or third pair might fold out the other players and give you the heads-up pot vs. the controllable deep stack.

Again, though, this is a very risky proposition. You don't have a hand that can withstand any pressure at all, and if someone behind you (or your target opponent) reraises, you will be stuck laying down ... and very expensively.

Cris

[tewall]

I agree with you completely in a tough game, but not for most of the games discussed here. In these softer games, the raises will be called without a thought (other than, "my hand is pretty good, so I'll call"). Here I think the best advice is just forget about your hand if the flop is bad.

[CrisBrown]

Hi tewall,

I agree. In a soft game where everyone's going to call with any piece of anything, you go back to solid, ABC poker and wait to collect on your monster hands and/or monster flops.

Cris