PL 200...How Not to Play the Nuts?

[Lucky]

This is an ugly hand from tonight.




Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (10 handed)

Hero ($628.84)
CO ($190.90)
Button ($1414.78)
SB ($166.60)
BB ($200)
UTG ($598)
UTG+1 ($242.40)
UTG+2 ($138.90)
MP1 ($98.50)
MP2 ($196)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $4, Hero calls $4, CO folds, Button calls $4, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: ($18) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $9</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to $44.1</font>, BB folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $35.10.


Button is way loose, but the big bet means something, i.e. Axs, set or two pair. I mini bet to represent the flush and elicit action. I get it with the raise. The million dollar question is: should I have pushed here??? I figure it's 4 to 1 they'll be no flush card, and I can check raise him on the turn.


Turn: ($106.20) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets $103.2</font>, Hero folds.

Uh-oh, I give him credit for the flush, game over. What do you think?

Final Pot: $209.40
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $106.20, won by Button.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: $103.20, overbet by Button.</font>

[muzungu]

Hey Lucky-

Haven't thought through the whole thing just yet, but one brief thing to consider: if you think he might have 2 pair or a set, any 6, 7, or 8 is also problematic. So the # of scare cards increases from 9 to 17.

-muz

[Lucky]

Good Point, I'm definitely a dog to the possibility of hands he could have. I'm just waiting to hear, "You greedy moron, reraise on the flop and hope to get him pot committed right then and there, when you know you're ahead!"

[AJo Go All In]

i would only go all in if you are positive he has a lower straight or a set, and will definitely call you. i would have made it 180 or so.

in my opinion calling with the intention of check-raising the turn is a bad play here because:

(1) if he has a set or a straight there are plenty of turn cards that could completely kill your action, while he would probably double you up on the flop.

(2) he could easily have a flush draw intending to check the turn through, in which case your plan is a total disaster.

(3) there are a ton of scare cards that could cause you to fold the best hand on the turn.

also, a general comment. i notice this mentality from a lot of players: wow, i have a set/straight/nuts or near-nuts hand, i'm gonna check-raise. many times this isn't the best approach. the goal is not to win one pot-sized bet from the guy--in general you are trying to double up in these spots. many times the best way to do that is to bet out, and hope your opponent commits himself with a big raise. hmm, that wasn't so helpful, but i'm tired, so i'm done with this post.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Lucky,

I'd have set him in at the flop. I tend to play flopped straights fast, for three reasons:

First, it's a strong but vulnerable hands that can look so nice at the flop and so ugly at the turn or river. Straights are very prone to being counterfeited. And if a flush falls or the board pairs, you're stuck with a hand that may be the best hand, but that you can't bet hard -- especially against a skilled opponent -- because he won't call a substantial bet unless he has you beaten. Uggh!

Second, if someone wants to try to outdraw my straight, I want him to make him pay to do it. Straights will often get action from an opponent with two pair (he's playing a connector), or a flush draw ("hey, if I hit it won't have to worry about the straight"), and while they'll outdraw you some of the time, you will clean them out more of the time.

Third it adds some deception to your play. Because so many players slowplay flopped straights, your opponents are less likely to give you credit for the hand.

That's not to say I never slowplay a set or straight. I do sometimes. But most of the time, I play them fast.

Cris

[Paul2432]

Cris and AJ,

This hand was pot limit not no limit so Lucky can only re-raise around $100 more not all-in. How does this change your advice?

Paul

[cornell2005]

bet as much as the pot allows. nothings worse than folding to the flush board when he raises that much preflop and not being able to be sure he even has the flush.

he has the potential to represent a whole bunch of different cards here, and deciding what he has is pretty tough. so just put the decision on him. plus, i think he will call. if he doesnt, then he was on a semi-bluff anyways, and you wont get anything out of him further either way. so seems like an easy push to me

[CrisBrown]

Hi Paul,

Sorry for the misread. Yes, bet the pot back at him. The same logic still applies. You want to charge him as much as you can to chase you down.

Cris

[ML4L]

[Zag]

I totally agree with the posters who say that you should get all in (a pot-sized bet is close enough to effectively be all in, with his stack size) on the flop. With position, I might consider just calling and taking a look at the turn, but since he has position on you, don't give him more information with which to operate, put him to the test right now.

However, I would like to point out that you haven't got exactly the nuts on the flop. Again, I've been playing Omaha too much, I think, but my first thought was that he has 9d Td, which is way ahead of you. Anyway, any other 9T with even a single diamond is freerolling you significantly.

[AJo Go All In]

[ QUOTE ]

However, I would like to point out that you haven't got exactly the nuts on the flop. Again, I've been playing Omaha too much, I think, but my first thought was that he has 9d Td, which is way ahead of you. Anyway, any other 9T with even a single diamond is freerolling you significantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, you have been playing omaha too much. this is not something you should generally be worried about. i mean, if both players have a billion dollars in front of them, and the pot is 10 dollars, and the other guy bets a billion all in, then we can think about (possibly) folding our hand. but it's silly to really think about the implications of a freeroll here because we are clearly backing our hand with our whole stack on the flop, no matter what.