A8s --- Argument over betting strategy

Big debate today at 6-12 game. utg makes it a live $12 and i'm next with A8s. Loose table, so I called, 4 other callers, button raises. Comes back to me, I reraise. Huge pot. Flop 10-crap-crap rainbow. LB bets, fold-fold, I raise, everyone else folds. Heads up, turn no help, river no help, I lose.


Argument ensues with my neighbor, a good player, who said that if I was going to play, I should have raised off the bat. I said that with an A8s, I wanted callers because I need lots of action to make flush opportunity pay off. I knew this table, and felt most players would call the live 6, but not as many would call the raise. Those that would would probably beat my Ace anyway, so what's the point of thinning the field pre-flop.


Thoughts?

both ways have advantages...


just calling: more players if you hit your hand which can be a big pot.


raising: you may get it shorthanded with 2 other random hands. *blind and straddler* the straddler isnt folding to a raise. but this also makes it expensive for anyone else to come in behind you. and Axs plays well shorthanded. and anyone reraising behind you, it may be easier to put them on a hand. even cold callers...therefore easier to release depending on the flop


if i chose to play this hand, id be more likely to raise or fold here. but i can see your point if it was a passive table. from your post it doesnt look like you were charged on the turn or river...thats kind of a bonus there..


b

Really aggressive there, folks.


UTG came in before the flop for a raise. I think at 6-12 you have to respect that and A8s is not a very strong EP hand ... I'd muck, but you reraised. Luckily, you got some customers and then the button reraised. Wow. Not enough for you, so you reraised ... maybe you were feeling lucky, hoping to flop top 2 pair or a nice nut flush draw?


Anyhow, this argument seems to come up a lot here: pumping a nut flush draw or suited connectors before the flop. In LP I see how such a play makes sense *on occasion* but in EP I think it's sheer madness.


All those bets before the flop crushed your implied odds for the rare times you'd flop a nut flush draw. If an ace fell on the flop you'd never know where you were, but I'd have to assume you would have been well behind. I suggest you review your odds and see ow often you'll flop a flush draw with 2 suited cards, and how often you'll get there by the river. Certianly not very often, and that's why you tiptoe in cheaply and hope for lots of people who will pay you off handsomely when you do get there.


People here will talk about raising before the flop with a drawing hand (AXs, suited connectors, small to medium wired pairs) to build a pot "in case you hit your hand." Obviously, you wouldn't raise preflop with 72o "in case the flop came 222 and I'd get paid" so why do it with A6s in EP .. little difference, as both hands are 'drawing hands' and need help from the board that comes not too often.


Not to mention, your preflop raise could have well eliminated all most/customers, leaving you heads up against an UTG raiser who we'll have to assume had a very strong hand of 2 big cards. Not an ideal situation with A6s by any stretch of the imagination. Even 3-way, A6s is a pretty poor excuse for a hand in EP.

You didn't reraise UTG preflop, but my other analysis stands for what it's worth. I feel that was a loose call preflop but you may have had a good read on the table, as you got lots of action. While I think the button's reraise was a bad thing, you not only were happy but also chose to pop it. Wow.

"UTG came in before the flop for a raise"


he did not raise...it was a blind straddle. if it was a raise, then its an easy fold. please read the section on isolating a maniac and youll see the concept im talking about. yes its risky to do, but it is possible...


"Obviously, you wouldn't raise preflop with 72o "in case the flop came 222 and I'd get paid" so why do it with A6s in EP "


there is a huge difference between these 2 hands.


"leaving you heads up against an UTG raiser who we'll have to assume had a very strong hand of 2 big cards"


again...this was a straddle, not a raise from the way i read it...


after i posted the original response, i thought about it, and decided that if i chose to use this, id rather have A2s to A5s. that way giving me a str8 possibility also.


again...if it WASNT a straddle, then its a fold, unless i know theres gonna be many players coming in, but even then, id still rather be in a much later position.


b

i reread the live straddle section and the maniac section...


against live straddles, they recommend legitimate raising hands...but against a maniac, other hands are possible...


when i see a live straddle, i tend to treat it like a maniac hand since its basically a blind hand being raised. so ill take my decent hand, against a blind hand, any day. given that the table will let you isolate like that. sometimes they will, sometimes they wont...


just some ideas...


b

Horse of a different color being a straddle, you are correct. If table loose-passive *maybe* call the straddle, *maybe* raise to isolate but I still don't like it a whole lot.


Our hero's preflop raise is the one that really gets me, though. Don't get me wrong - I like to gamble and sometimes do silly stuff like this to press my luck - but this play is still completely incorrect.

Thanks for the comments though still no answer to core question: If you're going to come in at all with this hand (A8s on a live straddle), do you call or raise?


A8s is a weak hand, no doubt. But this table was paying off and I knew a lot of players would come in if I didn't rereaise. So given that I was coming in anyway, do you want a lot of opponents or few?


I thought that may as well have a lot, because if I had few, likelihood is that my ace wouldn't stand up anyway. I'm pretty much hoping for flush draw or pair of 8s with a back-door flush on the flop (two pair or flush a dream). I know it's a longer shot, but this table would've paid off all the way (at least three players on the turn) with a flush on the board. But I could easily be wrong re whether to raise or not.

I love to see straddles, but would rather do battle with big cards when I can legitimately raise. Irrespective of the fact that the straddler's hand is most likely inferior to A6s, our hero's hand still likes long implied odds and lots of opponents. Furthermore, this table sounds like one that will not tolerate isolation plays (loose), so our hero had little chance to isolate the straddler anyway. Finally, playing AXs in EP makes me nervous about what sort of big


It was a questionable play to call the straddle in EP with A6s, and crazy to pop it when it came back around. All that money in the pot, and our hero is now feeling compelled to chase to the end only to get beat with this mediocre hand that completely missed the flop, turn and river. "Throwing good money after bad" so to speak.


A trouble hand to play in EP as was clearly demonstrated here.

Bernie: I see, you're talking about my reraise preflop. lol---That was just pure gamble-gamble at that point. Everyone in was gonna stay in, I have a rep as a tight, solid player. Reraise bought 8 more bets. It also set up my post-flop play: Flop was crap, really loose player bet it, I raised behind her and everyone folded thinking I had a top pair of some sort. Now, any ace, I win. Without that reraise, people would have stayed in. My thinking is that once you're in and the pot is big, you have to do whatever you can to win it.

Call is good for a loose table, and you hope to not get raised and look to flop a flush draw or a miracle. Then you let the pot and implied odds make most of your decisions for chasing.


Raise if the table is tight or otherwise responsive to preflop pressure - this may let you isolate the straddler against whom you are most likely ahead. Then you simply must outplay him and any remaining opponents, which ain't easy in EP but can be done with a little skill and help from the board.


From the sound of it, you're sitting at a pretty loose table so I'd simply call the straddle and cross my fingers. I would definitely not reraise preflop given the slim odds for getting a flop that your hand is going to enjoy.

Markg,


I think you are asking the wrong question here, the right question is whether or not you are going to play at all in this situation. I would not play for two bets in early position, even against a straddler.


However, once you decide to play, I have to agree with your friend, and go ahead an three bet and try and get the hand headsup with the straddler, and hopefully win it on the flop or the turn if he doesn't improve.


Good luck,

Bob T.

actually you called at first preflop...i didnt comment on the reraise preflop. which i think DID work in your favor as far as representation.


however, you didnt say how the other streets went. did you bet the turn and river? or stop betting once you got it HU? if your representing AA here, why not just bet it out until he stops ya. unless you have a good read that hes seeing the showdown regardless. then save some chips...


in some of the games i play, players will come in for 2 bets, but tend to hesitate and fold a little for 3 or more...but at times, there's only 1 way to test it. it may/maynot have been the case here. just my experience.


b

this is pretty much the idea i was getting at...


see...we actually agree on it...the question wasnt to play or not to play. it was IF you played it, how would you...


nice post


b