Matt vs. Mike - Round 1 (5-10 PLHE)

[ML4L]

Hey all,

How good am I at poker? I play in Matt Flynn's regular PLHE game, yet have managed to avoid playing at the same time as him for the last month and a half (it's actually just a product of our conflicting schedules, but still...).

But, today, we're six-handed, and Matt strolls in. Fortunately, his reserved seat was to my immediate right. Due to a run of cold cards for Matt, we actually go a couple of hours without being in a single pot together. Then, 15 minutes before the end of my session...

We're 5-handed at this point, and I ($1600) open up UTG for $35 with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Loose SB ($1200) calls, and Matt ($1500) calls in the BB. Three to the flop, which comes:

K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Checked to me, I bet $75, SB folds, Matt insta-check-raises to $200. This came as no shock to me, because earlier he had been talking about how he was going to check-raise me, and this was his first opportunity.

Unfortunately, he has caught me in one of my least favorite positions in hold 'em (meaning: facing aggression on a draw-containing flop, holding TPTK/overpair, with moderately deep stacks). So, forgive me if this hand seems straightforward/elementary, but what now?

Fold?

Flat-call? If so, what is the plan for the rest of the hand, especially if a flush/straight card comes?

Reraise? If so, what do you do if he comes back over the top? If he calls, what is the plan for the rest of the hand, especially if a flush/straight card comes?

Thanks in advance.

ML4L

[Talex]

Hey There,

I'm wondering why you underbet the pot on the flop? You're awfully vulnerable here, why open yourself up to the kind of response that you got? Most of what makes this a tough decision is that weak bet. You've opened the door to the possibility of induced aggression from a weaker hand and clouds whether you're up against a flopped set, a draw, worse kicker, or a straight bluff.

Once in this spot though, I think I'm probably going to flat call and fire again if the turn isn't scary. If it does come scary I'm torn between a bluff bet or a check/fold. I hate being in these spots though, and I would have considered overbetting the pot somewhat on this flop. I certainly wouldn't have underbet it.

-Tim

[AJo Go All In]

i would make it something like 550.

if he does not fold, i am generally done with the hand.

[Matt Flynn]

Mike I just got home from the all night game and am foggy as heck. I played three big hands with a K32 flop and can't remember which this was. What did you do?

The nice thing about playing with someone with a medium stack is you can make them good and uncomfortable on the flop. Even if you call your shot. ;-)

[SomeName]

I have no idea how good this Matt cat is, but if you respect his game, why even bother. Are there plenty of other sea creatures in the game to fight with?

[ML4L]

Hey all,

Thanks for the responses. Not the most interesting hand in the world, but one of the specific situations that still gives me trouble...

In the hand, I decided to reraise $500 more. Matt knows that I'm going to auto-bet that flop and that I'm going to have a hard time calling a raise with a smaller pocket pair. The presence of the draws on the board dissuaded me from flat-calling and raising the turn. Plus, the stack sizes let me get away from the hand if he comes back over the top.

He folded to the reraise without much thought. Ho-hum...

Anyway, would anyone flat-call and raise the turn if the flop were K72 rainbow? Just wondering...

ML4L

[ML4L]

Hey Talex,

My flop bet was 3/4 pot, which I felt was reasonable on that flop. I range between 3/4 and full pot bets on the flop; $75 just happened to be a round number that sounded good. The bet was large enough that wacky, speculative hands would still fold, and good draws are not folding to a larger bet. I could not overbet the pot; this is pot-limit hold' em...

ML4L

[ML4L]

Hey Some,

I do try to avoid big confrontations with Matt and the other good players in the game and make my money elsewhere (just as they generally don't go looking to pick on me). There are plenty of weakies in the game that it's just not necessary. But, kinda tough to pick your spots in a 5-handed game... I think that it was odd that it took 3 hours (or, a month and a half, for that matter...) for a hand such as this one to occur.

ML4L

[Talex]

Ahhh... I totally missed it was pot limit. I think against anybodies I'm still betting the pot for value, but it sounds like you had a read on Matt that makes your bet sound a lot more reasonable. I still think I probably would have flat called and bet out on a non-scare turn. I wonder if I'm costing myself dough with that play though. If Matt hadn't folded to your reraise, but instead calls, what's your play on the turn?

-Tim

[Matt Flynn]

Mike you were squarely on AA or AK there. But would you fold? If forced to choose my answer was yes, but I didn't feel like putting my stack behind it. I had suffered a huge loss Thursday and wanted some A-B-C poker to build my stack, and also didn't really feel any need to kill you.

Just a little test, and that time the exam was announced in advance. AK is a tough decision hand whenever the stacks are bigger than obvious commitment. There was a thread recently where someone had AK with position and then got limp-reraised. Flop came Axx monotone, not his suit, and limp-reraiser bet $300 into a $375 pot with Hero having $710 in front of him. That is a no-brainer all-in, but most of the posters didn't see it. Here your stack was much bigger relative to the pot, so I put you to a tough decision, made more so because you know I will back my read with my stack.

Nicely played.

Matt

[tewall]

What happens if you call and check the turn? Will he automatically bet the turn? If there's a good chance he won't bet, you could take that course of action, as you don't mind showing down your hand if the pot's not too big.

The problem with raising is what do you do if he re-raises? He says he had you solidly on AA or AK, which in this situation are for all practical purposes the same. So he could have re-raised and you would have had to fold, wouldn't you? So he could have re-raised you with any two cards. I think you were fortunate he didn't do that.

[Matt Flynn]

Nice point tewall. My cards don't necessarily matter in this hand. Once Mike bet that flop and pondered my check-raise, all I have to do is decide whether he has the set of kings or not and then whether he will back his AA/AK with his stack. If the answer to both is no, it's my pot.

[ML4L]

Hey Matt,

In your response to me, you wrote,

[ QUOTE ]
Mike you were squarely on AA or AK there. But would you fold? If forced to choose my answer was yes

[/ QUOTE ]

For PRECISELY this reason, I intended to call if you came back at me (I wasn't 100% sure, but if I had to guess, I would say "probably").

The entire reason that it is so difficult to play TPTK or an overpair in these situations is that, many times, your opponent knows with near 100% certainty what your holding is. And, YOU know that your opponent knows with near 100% certainty what your holding is. Yet, your opponent could be holding anything. Sounds a lot like that Fundamental Theorem of Poker stuff...

Along those lines, on this hand, you knew that I knew that you knew that I had AA/AK. You also knew that, because I knew that you knew that I had AA/AK, I "couldn't" call an all-in. How can I call a reraise that says, "I know your exact holding, and I don't care?" The answer is, I "can't." But, as tewall pointed out, that means that you could run this little play with any two cards. So, in my opinion, your bluffing frequency here would be such that a call is correct.

Stated a little differently, someone once said that the essence of poker is figuring out what your opponent wants you to do and disappointing him. When the action plays out the way it would have had we gone back-and-forth on that flop, is it because you want me to fold or call? I think the answer is "fold," because you "know" that I "can't" call with my holding.

I have been well-aware since I began playing in your game that the mere fact that we interact on this forum (and thus, you know my play VERY well) would end up setting up a fascinating "sub-game" between us. Fortunately, it wasn't until yesterday that I finally had to play it... Because poker is tough enough without my having to think eight levels deep about a heads-up situation... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mike

[tewall]

In this case, I think the guy who said lay down your hand and pick on some softer fish was right. You two guys obviously have a clue as to what you're doing, so the best you can do is fall back on game theory and bluff/call game-theoretically correctly. In this case, you'll both break even, but your variance will be high.

Sounds like a lot of effort for not much gain. You should save it for the suckers.

OTOH, fighting spirit and a sense of fair play calls for fighting for pots, even among friends. So I'll look forward to seeing some more posts about your encounters.