PLO8 hand - where did i screw this up?

[crockpot]

note: crossposted in PL/NL.

A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 K in SB on party $25. four limpers, i limp, BB checks.

flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

checked to LAG in LP who bets pot of $3, i call, two more callers. LAG has about $16 behind, i have $22, others have me covered.

turn: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

checked to LAG, pot bet, i call, one more caller.

river: A /images/graemlins/club.gif.

checked to LAG, he bets $2.50 all in, i call, other player calls.

let me have it. there were a lot of times i could have made a different play than i actually did, so i'm ready for whatever you can dish out.

[Drunk Bob]

On the flop. I would have done the same thing. This is why I am a PLO Loser /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Big Dave D]

Preflop I may do a spice up raise to 3x big blind if it will win me the button. Also if the game isnt Kamikaze preflop it makes sense to increase the stakes in position with your good hands. Note this doesnt commit you to a damn thing afterwards.

I would raise the flop...which would almost certainly mean that everything would be different from then on. The turn wouldnt make me back off. The thing with online plo8b is that players are so bad, chasing weak lows dry and all sorts, that weakish PLO high hands like two pairs shoot str8 up in value and should be played accordingly.

gl

Dave

[Buzz]

Crock - I don't know as much about this game (PLO-8) as you do, so take what I write with a grain of salt.

1st betting round: You have a nice, but not great, starting hand. The six provides only mediocre back-up for the acey-deucy. I would not generally raise from the small blind with A2XX in a limit game against decent hand readers. I would have even stronger feelings about not raising before the flop from the small blind with A2XX in a pot limit game against decent hand readers. I don't know your opponents here, but I think I'd generally play the first betting round the same as you.

2nd betting round: Although you don't have a great fit with the flop, you do have a decent fit. There is some danger of being up against another A2XX - maybe one that still has a back-up. However, in losing your mediocre low back-up, you have picked up top and bottom pairs. Top and bottom pairs are often weak in a limit game - and you can't usually bet enough in a limit game to bluff - (and anyhow you can't bluff anybody who has the nuts, always a distinct possibility in Omaha-8). However, you do have good scoop possibilities with this hand/flop.

And you need to find out what you're up against. Once you check/call on the 2nd betting round, you can't tell what's up - or at least I don't see how you read anybody for anything on subsequent betting rounds.

All things considered, I would bet the pot here, rather than check... (But like I have already written, you know more about this game than I do).

3rd betting round: You improve with the turn, picking up the nut diamond flush draw, but you still don't yet have anything solid.

In any event, after the turn you're still strictly on a draw. Ignoring quartering, you have eleven scoop outs and twelve half-pot outs. You don't like the other twenty one cards.

If they were all scoop outs, you'd be a favorite by 23 to 21. If you figure the half-pot outs as worth between 0.3 and 0.4 as much as the full scoop outs, then you're an underdog by maybe about 15 to 21... (Considering quartering and sixthing effects, and also considering that your own money gets split, figuring a half-pot out as worth between 0.3 and 0.4 of a full out seems more realistic than figuring a half-pot out as worth 0.5 as much as a full pot out).

15 to 21 then. O.K.? If so, you need just two opponents calling to have favorable odds to get as much money into the pot as possible.

I think getting your money in here is better than hoping for a free card. That's because you almost surely will have favorable odds.

By favorable odds I mean the ratio of OFM to YFM is greater than the ratio of SEO to UC. in other words, OFM/YM > SEO/UC.
(Key:
OFM = opponent's fresh money,
YFM = your own fresh money,
SEO = scoop equivalent outs,
UC = unfavorable cards.

And I think you're going to have two opponents calling. I think if you pot it here, you'll get at least two callers. On the other hand, if you pot it, there is a slight chance that your opponents will all fold here and you will scoop without having to suffer through a river card. The advantage to potting it yourself rather than letting someone else do it for you is this slight chance your opponents will all fold.

Therefore, I would pot it on the third betting round rather than hoping someone else pot it. You clearly should want to get your money in here.

4th betting round: You're probably screwed on the river with your top two pairs, but the price is right to call. This one is really easy.

---

That was the round by round analysis. Here are some general thoughts.

1. You're surely not folding this hand at any point. Thus the decision on every betting round is whether to limp or raise. You cannot tell, so far as I cas see, how many players will stay with you if you raise.

2. I think the trouble with raising on early rounds is you tend to get less action from decent players on later rounds when you do make your hand. And you're drawing all the way - with odds to call all the way.

3. The way you played the hand could have worked out very, very well for you. With a slightly different river card, you would have seemed to have played your opponents perfectly.

Although I might have done something differently, considering these three factors, the way you played the hand seems very reasonable to me. No glaring mistakes I can see.

Just my humble opinion.

Buzz

[crockpot]

thanks for the comments, i'd still like to see more if anyone has anything to add.

my thoughts on the flop were like this: this was a loose enough game for worse low draws to come in behind me, and even though the bettor is a LAG, i'm probably not in that great shape for the high at this point. so i don't want to raise. had the pot been raised preflop making the money less deep, i probably go all-in here (also, a preflop raiser is less likely to have me in trouble on this flop).

on the turn, if i thought a king or a six would win the pot for me for sure, i would have had no qualms about getting all my money in. but at this point i may be getting quartered if i hit my low, and i really don't feel too great about the high unless i get my flush. even calling is a bit iffy in retrospect, but in the heat of the moment i found it very hard to pass a hand with so much potential. i also had a little in the way of implied odds, especially if one of the callers behind me rivers a lower flush. at any rate, i saw no reason to raise.

i think the discussion on this hand highlights a lot of important PLO8 concepts, such as the importance of position both relative to the button and the bettor, the importance of knowing whether your outs will win you half the pot or all of it, and considering whether or not your outs are good to begin with.

if you're interested, LAG showed a set of sixes and a bad rivered low, and the guy behind me showed, to my shock, a turned straight with 9-7-x-x, so they split the pot.

as i said, further feedback appreciated.

[Big Dave D]

Clearly I should read closer...I didnt see you were in the SB.

So I wouldnt raise preflop and I would bet the flop and the turn. If I was raised on the flop then, probably, I would pass, especially if he picked up another caller. As usual in PL games additional callers do not always mean just better odds, but extensive duplication of your hand.

As to the preflop raise thing, I see that Buzz is against it. He's assuming you are playing decent players. If you are playing decent players you should simply not play PLO8b - it is a nightmare game against good foes. Its sole purpose is to seperate fools from their money with as little risk as possible. In a good game then raising in position is useful because (a) it loosens up the action...PLO8b can become quite passive (b) you are effectively raising the stakes for your good hands and keeping them low for your bad ones - this is hugely valuable. Of course if there is a lot of loose aggressive action then every hand is raised so it is a case of just muck all your worse hands and reraise with goodish aces.

[MilesDavis]

I would have re-raised on the flop for the max. Either take the pot there or get your money in when you are likely a favorite especially against just one player. By letting it go you likely have no chance at high. Hopefully the $3 raiser was on a low draw and you might take it all if that doesn't come. Otherwise you look to have a good shot at 3/4.

I am by no means an expert, but that is what I would have done.

[crockpot]

i personally don't believe in raising the stakes when i'm out of position with a hand that is this marginal. also, there is a certain effect of telling the table you have A2xx with your raise, similar to how some players only raise with AAxx in PLO high.

if you change my hand to A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif i am willing to raise it up even out of position, but that hand is a lot better than mine.

also, even though i agree that you want to find as loose a game as possible, it is not difficult to beat weak-tight opponents at PLO8. all you need to do is start raising pre-flop in position, then stealing on flops that have probably missed the callers. as for the "good" opponents, i have run into very few at party $25 games who have earned this distinction.

[Big Dave D]

Im not sure you read my post any more closely than I read your original one /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I said I wouldnt raise with your hand in the SB. In fact, plo8b is such a positional game that I very rarely raise in any of the early positions regardless of strength.

As to raising giving away the strength of your hand, well it shouldnt as you should be raising with AA baby and a34 suited and probably a356 suited too - of course all in position. These are all "raise the stake" raises. By and large the composition of online PLO8b games is either loose aggressive or more likely, loose passive. People are playing a lot of hands. Your example is a good one...someone playing 66 and someone else playing 97, both without an A2/3 combination. This is fairly typical. So if you raise against such oppostion, as long as they fit the loose passive profile, then you are making money simply becuase you are playing a larger game for your good hands, in position, and a small game when you are out of position.

gl

dd

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
As to raising giving away the strength of your hand, well it shouldnt as you should be raising with AA baby and a34 suited and probably a356 suited too - of course all in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big Dave - Maybe it shouldn't - but I think it does. Whether you raise with those other hands or not, rightly or wrongly, some of your opponents are going to tend to put you on A2XX when you raise from the small blind in a loose (pre-flop) game.

Obviously it depends on the skill level of your opponents. Expert players will read your raises for not necessarily having A2XX - and poor players may not even be thinking about what cards you may hold.

But the players in between these two levels, especially at the low end of the mediocre spectrum, will put you on A2XX for a raise from the small blind in a loose (pre-flop) game. These players are not sophisticated enough to put you on the wider range of hands with which you may actually be raising, but they do recognize acey-deucy as the best two-card combination with which to raise from the small blind in a loose (pre-flop) game - and A2XX is what they will figure you have.

Most of my typical opponents are located within this mediocre spectrum. They're not experts, but neither are they tyros.

All those opponents within this a-little-but-not-too-much-knowledge range are going to tend to put you on an acey-deucy combination for your raise from the small blind... For that reason, against this level of players, I think it's better to raise before the flop with the other hands you have mentioned - even though raising with those other holdings against totally unsophisticated players is not as ideal as raising with acey-deucy.

I hope that makes sense to you because when I'm playing well, it's clear to me that certain of my opponents read my actions in one way while certain other opponents have a different take. When I raise from the small blind, most of my opponents in a typical game will put me on A2XX! Better players don't, and poorer player don't, but most intermediate players do.

Thus when I actually have A2XX, raising from the small blind has about the same disadvantage as turning the ace-deuce face up would have. That's true even though, in reality, I raise more from the small blind with other hands than with A2XX.

I think regardless of the cards you hold for your pre-flop raises, some of your (mediocre) opponents will stubbornly cling to the notion that you hold A2XX when you raise from the small blind.

I think you can exploit this notion of theirs, and under certain conditions you may want to reinforce it. But that's a whole other topic.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Ray Zee]

you should be happy to get all your money in with this hand considering the amount you have. the best outcome is to play it so as to try to get it headup, so your high has best chance of scooping it. anything less is just playing too scared. and less will make you too easy to read in the future.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
you should be happy to get all your money in with this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Ray - Always nice to get the word from you. Just a clarification, please.

Do you mean before the flop, on the first betting round?

Or do you mean after the flop, on the second betting round?

Or do you mean after the turn, on the third betting round?

Thanks,

Buzz

[DPCondit]

I can't speak for Ray, but I'd probably pot it on both the flop (nut low draw and top and bottom pair) and the turn (add a nut flush draw). What's not to like here?

Good luck,
Don

[Buzz]

Thanks Don - I thought so too, but wanted to double check Ray's intended meaning.

Buzz

[crockpot]

i do like my hand here, but if i bet pot now, what do i do when i get called in a couple places and a big card turns? and what do i do if i get raised? decisions like this are why i would much rather be in position with a hand like this.

[DPCondit]

I'm going to get as much money in the middle as I can while I am a big money favorite. Once you're all in, it doesn't matter what card hits, you have no more decisions. You may manage to get it heads up, you may take the pot right there. Even if you get a bunch of loose calls you're still in good shape. If the river kills you, then buy some more chips, but you also stand to maybe take the pot right there or make a killing on this hand.

It looks like you're playing .50 - 1, I'd buy in for $100.00 so I can push people around a little and put *them* to a decision for all their chips.

Don

[crockpot]

how am i a big money favorite if i get raised on the flop or if i check a high card turn and someone bets? the worst hand i can see making this play is top two pair with no other draws, which is about even money with me on the flop and a big favorite on the turn.

putting people to a decision for all their chips is not a winning strategy if they won't fold a better hand, which was pretty much the case here.

it was the party $25 game with .25/.50 blinds, i was near the max buy-in already.

[DPCondit]

[ QUOTE ]
how am i a big money favorite if i get raised on the flop or if i check a high card turn and someone bets? the worst hand i can see making this play is top two pair with no other draws, which is about even money with me on the flop and a big favorite on the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you get reraised then you can slow down. I would have potted it, but then I guess I play pot-limit and no-limit more aggressively than you do. I wouldn't pot it with just top and bottom pair, but you also have the nut low draw, that seems like enough right there for me.

[ QUOTE ]
putting people to a decision for all their chips is not a winning strategy if they won't fold a better hand, which was pretty much the case here.


[/ QUOTE ]

You'll still gain equity if you get called by a worse hand. What did he have, a set? If you make a lot of raises like that (like I do), you'll often get paid off by worse hands.

[ QUOTE ]
it was the party $25 game with .25/.50 blinds, i was near the max buy-in already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, my bad, I misread that part.

Good luck,
Don