Ethics and check-raising -- a question.

[cold_cash]

I played last night at my local Native American establishment, and it was the softest, most passive game I have ever seen.

It did bring up a question that I wanted to ask, however...

This is about the 5th time I've played at this place, for a total of around 25-30 hours. In all that time, I have never seen anyone check-raise. Not once. I know it's allowed, but nobody does it.

Finally last night I mentioned this to the guy sitting next to me, and he said "Yeah, I don't play here too much, but it seems like check-raising is kind of taboo. It's within the rules, but if someone does it everyone kind of gasps and shoots the guy a dirty look...etc"

Now, I understand that I'm not there to make friends, necassarily, and maybe I shouldn't care about the dirty looks and the whispers, but when you're actually sitting there it's a bit hard not to. I don't really want to become the table dick.

So is there a way to become a ruthless, cold-blooded, check-raising assassin at a place like this without alienating myself, or should I just say "screw it, I don't care what you think" and do it anyway?

[Warik]

I do not see anything ethically wrong with check-raising. Poker is a game of strategy and deception and check-raising is an element of both categories.

You can check-raise as a method of deception to show strength against a single opponent when you are really weak.

You can check-raise to trap the bettors who have already put in a single bet and 99% of the time are willing to put another (especially at Native American establishments from what I see.)

At my local Native American establishment, check-raisers are viewed as silly kids (only we "kids" do it) who are just trying to scare people out for a measly dollar. Little do they realize that it's a value check-raise because I know they'll always call.

I will check-raise on every street if I think it's possible.

Screw them and take their money.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
I will check-raise on every street if I think it's possible.

Screw them and take their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played in a game like this as well. I took this approach, and one of the regulars had it in for me.

I tilted him so badly that he lost 75 BB in under 3 hours, most of them to me.

In addition to check-raising, these guys hardly ever raised either. It was the best game I was ever in.

After about 2 hours there, they started respecting my PF raises and I was able to bluff until I got caught. Then it was back to ABC which worked for another hour or so.

I played that game for about 7 hours total and was up around 200BB when I was done. They were glad to see me go, but I don't care.

If it's within the rules and it gives you an advantage, use it. If they don't like it, they can get up and leave.

As Dr. Schoonmaker said in a different thread, If they can't handle the game, they should be playing Old Maid. (That's not an exact quote)

Good Luck.

[MaxPower]

I would just suggest you play your normal game. If you do decide to not check-raise and no one ever check-raises in the game here is what I would suggest: Loosen up a lot on the button. Play anything decent. If you never have to worry about a check-raise that frees you up to bet many more hands when last to act. The positional advantage is magnified when there is no check raising.

Conversly your positional disadvantage is much worse in EP when you can't check-raise, so you might want to throw away some of the more marginal hands in EP. On the other hand, if the game is as passive as you say, your opponents probably won't be taking advantage of their positional advantage.

Anyway, I think choosing to check-raise is better because if your opponents are passive it will only make them more passive and move them further away from correct play.

[James Boston]

I don't know if I would give up check-raising, but I do try to keep from being the "the table dick." If you piss off the whole table, you're either going to tilt them (good for you) or have them gang up on you (bad for you). It's just good business not to bite the hand that's feeding you.

[jdl22]

Which Casino can you play hold'em at? I'm from Oregon (grew up in Sutherlin, went to the U of O for five years in Eugene) and will be returning there this summer. I'll be in Eugene mainly but would definately make a couple trips to a casino. As I recall there are casinos outside Salem (can't remember the name but I saw a BB King concert there), 1 in Southern Oregon (7 feathers or Cow Creek), and one around Coos Bay/North Bend.

[cold_cash]

I usually play at Spririt Mountain (a little ways outside of Salem, towards the coast). I think there are poker rooms at almost all of them now, though.

There's also Chinook Winds, which is in Lincoln City, I believe.

[jdl22]

Cool, thanks. Spririt mountain is the one where I saw the BB King show. I think it's about an hour and a half from Eugene.

What games do they spread at Spirit Mountain? How bad is the rake?

[cold_cash]

They spread 2/4, 3/6, 4/8, and 10/20 Hold 'em. I think there's a 20/40 game sometimes too, but it's never been going when I was there.

On friday and saturday nights they have "Poker School", which I think is 1/2 Hold 'em, with the have the dealers giving instructions and stuff. (I think)

They usually have a couple Omaha tables going too. 4/8 and 10/20, I think.

I've only played 3/6, so I don't really know anything about the other games. The games I've been in have been really, really good so far though. Really loose and passive.

Sometimes they have a $100 buy-in no limit game going also.

I'm sure they've got a website with all this stuff on it someplace. Search around and you could probably find out all the details.

[jdl22]

Thanks.

I'm looking now. I'll let you know if I'm going there this summer. Maybe we could get together.

On your question I would say check-raise away. It's not a home game where if you get people upset the game will go away.

[scotnt73]

the only time i would not check-raise is when im playing in a friendly home game that im new to and everyone there wants to play that way. not because im a nice guy but because im the new guy and if you badly tilt someone in a home game and you arent among friends you may have to fight. like that guy on the blue collar tour says "i dont know how many of them it would take to kick MY ass but i do know how many were about to try."

[OnlinePokerCoach]

When I was first learning hold'em in Las Vegas, I remember sitting beside a local, self-described "shark" who told me that a poker player without his checkraise is like a carpenter without his hammer.

We were at the hold'em game at Circus Circus casino, where there was actually a house rule against checkraising. It was a really soft low limit game laid out mainly for the local senior citizens.

Cheers,
OnlinePokerCoach.com

[colgin]

It's obviously totally ethical to check-raise whatever these players at your local NA establishm,ent think. However, I think the analysis for you is whether the benefits of using the check-raise in apprporiate situations is outweighed by the potential negative factors of having the whole table turn against you and/or turning these losse calling stations into tougher, more aggressive players who might start check-raising themselves.

[Homer]

If you piss off the whole table, you're either going to tilt them (good for you) or have them gang up on you (bad for you).

I'd love it if an entire table was ganging up on me.