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andyfox
04-03-2004, 01:29 AM
From today's L.A. Times:

Wal-Mart vs. Inglewood a Warm-Up for L.A. Fight

Tuesday’s balloting will hold lessons for a battle pitting the mega-retailer against the megalopolis.
By Jessica Garrison and Sara Lin
Los Angeles Times April 2, 2004

With Inglewood voters set to decide Tuesday whether Wal-Mart can build a Supercenter in town, the battle over the chain’s expansion throughout California may soon shift to Los Angeles, where officials are laying plans to effectively ban the megastores in much of the nation’s second-largest city.

From Calexico to Contra Costa County, the retail giant has successfully fought efforts to keep out the centers, which combine the trappings of a normal Wal-Mart with aisles of groceries.

But in Inglewood, Wal-Mart has employed a new strategy.

The world’s largest company has put an initiative on the ballot that would sideline local officials and allow the development without the usual traffic studies, environmental reviews and public hearings.

“The stakes in Inglewood are the highest they have ever been anywhere,” said Madeline Janis-Aparicio, executive director of the Los Angles Alliance for a New Economy, a community organization that is trying to rally residents against the initiative. “They want to throw out all the local planning laws and make themselves a little Wal-Mart city.”

In Inglewood, Los Angeles and elsewhere, many labor and community groups are opposed to the nonunion Wal-Mart stores because they say they depress wages, drive out existing businesses, create traffic problems and actually reduce the total number of jobs in the surrounding area.

Wal-Mart officials say they are only trying to give consumers what they want: low prices, jobs for young people and sales tax revenue for cash-strapped cities.

“It’s important that Inglewood consumers have the same shopping that many of the neighboring communities have had for yeas,” said Wal-Mart spokesman Peter Kanelos. “Wal-Mart and our customers are tired of being bullied by the unions. If the unions and the local politicians they put in office want to attack Wal-Mart, they can rest assured that we’ll fight back.”

In the city of Los Angeles, where officials are putting the finishing touches on an ordinance that would effectively prohibit the Supercenters in much of the city limits, political and labor leaders say they are watching Inglewood closely for clues to the kind of fight the company may wage against them.

Councilmen Eric Garcetti and Ed Reyes introduced a motion more than a year ago that would prohibit stores with more than 100,k000 square feet that devote more than 10% of their inventory to nontaxable food and drugs in areas of the city designated as economic assistance zones, which cover about 60% of the city. A Supercenter can run 200,000 square feet.

The proposal still must go before the city’s Planning Commission and the City Council could vote on it as soon as this summer. Mayor James K. Hahn has said he supports the idea, as does City Atty. Rocky Delgadillo.

Garcetti said the ordinance is necessary to “maintain small businesses and protect decent-paying jobs.”

“We’ve seen the record of the Supercenters throughout this country in shutting down main streets . . . and in replacing good-paying jobs with poverty-level jobs that take billions out of the local economy,” he said.

But some local leaders take issue with blanket prohibitions against Wal-Mart Supercenters.

Los Angeles City Councilman Bernard C. Parks has opposed Garcetti’s and Reyes’ proposed ban. A traditional Wal-Mart store opened in his district last year in Baldwin Hills Crenshaw Plaza, and has proven to be tremendously popular, Parks said. “Certain communities like the 8th District . . . should not be restricted from having access to those willing to come in to the community,” Parks said.

Ever since Wal-Mart announced plans to build 40 Supercenters throughout California, their impending arrival has triggered changes in the grocery industry and sparked skirmished between the company and organized labor and their allies.

The specter of the Supercenters fueled the longest supermarket strike in Southern California history last fall and winter. About 70,000 grocery workers, who earn an average of $19 an hour, walked picket lines for 4-1/2 months to protest proposed reductions in health benefits that the supermarkets said they needed to hold their own against Wal-Mart. The strike was settled in February with a two-tier system under which the stores will pay new hires les in wages and benefits than veteran workers.

With the strike over, organized labor, including the United Food and Commercial Workers union, which represents grocery workers, has turned its attention to mobilizing local communities to keep the Supercenters out.

In some communities, such as Bakersfield and Hemet, residents, often backed by union money, have sued to block construction. In others, such as Oakland and Turlock, city and county leaders have enacted laws that would prohibit them.

Wal-Mart has been fighting them every step of the way—and has not yet lost a Supercenter battle. In Calexico and Contras Costa County, for example, the company has persuaded voters to repeal prohibitions against Supercenters. In other instances, the retailer has filed lawsuits against cities.

Wal-Mart is using a new strategy in Inglewood. Instead of launching a campaign to repeal an ordinance, the company is pushing for a more sweeping initiative that would allow construction of a shopping center the size of 17 football fields without normal city input. It would be built on an empty lot between the Hollywood Park racetrack and the Forum.

Inglewood officials and Wal-Mart have been tussling over the development, which could include a Supercenter, for more than a year. The first volley came in October 2002, when the Inglewood City Council adopted an emergency ordinance to prevent construction of retail stores larger than 155,000 square feet that sell more than 20,000 nontaxable items, such as food and drugs.

Within a month, Wal-Mart had enough petitions to force a public vote on the ordinance. At the same time, the company threatened to sue the city for alleged procedural violations.

Inglewood officials backed down, rescinding their Supercenter ban. Outraged at the retreat, the United Food and Commercial Workers union successfully backed its own candidate for City Council. Faced with the possibility that the new council would revive attempts to block its plans, Wal-Mart backed a group called “Citizens Committee to Welcome Wal-Mart to Inglewood” and quickly gathered a new batch of signatures for an initiative.

Both sides are pushing hard in the working-class town, which is roughly split between African Americans and Latinos. Wal-Mart has spent more than $1 million on an election in which fewer than 10,000 people are expected to vote. The company has flooded the icy with television commercials and mailers depicting happy African American families and calling the development “good news for everyone in Inglewood”

Other fliers trumpet the project as a boon for Inglewood youths who need entry-level jobs and say that $3 million to $5 million in new sales tax revenue could boost the police force and “fix up our street and sidewalks.”

Mayor Roosevelt F. Dorn, who says the Wal-Mart development would create 2,00 construction jobs and more than 1,000 permanent jobs for residents, is the only Inglewood elected official who has endorsed Measure 04-A.

The other side, meanwhile, is trying to make the point that the development would not only hurt Inglewood’s established businesses and bring in the wrong kind of jobs, but would set a dangerous precedent.

“Beyond the question of do you like Wal-Mart or not, the real issue is, is it appropriate for them to bully their way into the city and not comply with local laws . . .state environmental law . . . and public input into the process,” said Assemblyman Jerome Horton (D-Inglewood).

A broad spectrum of community leaders have come out against the initiative, including city, county and state officials, clergy form the Nation of Islam, the Catholic Church and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

But they acknowledge that they are facing an uphill fight—especially because they have far less money. The Los Angeles Alliance for a New Economy has spent less than $20,000, and the Los Angeles County Federation of Labor-Backed Voter Improvement Project has budgeted $125,000 for the fight.

“We don’t have the kind of funds to be on television like they are,” said Miguel Contreras, the labor federation’s executive secretary and treasurer “Well be outspent 10 to 1.”

Still, California is giving Wal-Mart a run for its money. “The political obstacles set up by our competitors and the unions have made it a challenge,” said Robert McAdam, the company’s vice president for state and local government relations.

Harley Shaiken, a professor of geography at UC Berkeley who studies labor and the political economy, said the retailer’s victories may be coming at a price here. “Wal-Mart is winning,” he said. “But it is a costly victory. It’s expensive I dollar terms . . . but it is also expensive in image terms. No retailer wants to be constantly fighting a battle about its image in the community.”

But labor leader Contreras predicts an intense fight in Los Angeles. “Well do the battle royale in Los Angels,” he said. “This will be a battleground, a national battleground.”

Note that Wal-Mart, the biggest corporation in history, which who now sells more than Sears, JC Penney, Target and K-Mart combined, says they're being "bullied." This despite spending over ten times what they unions will spend.

Those who see corporations as only economic entities, and not political entities, need to look again. The "battle royale" between Inglewood, or Los Angeles, is a joke. Wal-Mart, as it always does, will chew up its opponents and spit them out.

Phat Mack
04-03-2004, 07:48 AM
Fascinating. I've seen Wal-mart wipe out small to medium size Texas towns, but didn't know anyone was fighting them before they got in. There was an article in the NYT a year or two ago about what happens when a Wal-Mart goes into a town, wipes out the small business, then decides it's not making enough money and leaves. You end up with rural/small town residents driving 70 miles for groceries. Very interesting economic force.

GWB
04-03-2004, 08:50 AM
Grocery stores and discount stores have a limited productive lifespan because of unions.

They start as competitive chains that take an area by storm. Then over the course of 2,3,4 decades the unions unionize their employees and start to suck the chain dry with excessive frills. The profit margins in the industry are such that the chain slowly becomes unprofitable and eventually dies. Then all the employees complain about losing their great jobs - having to now work for a newer chain.

Wal-Mart is just now starting to be taken over by unions, so they have a couple decades to survive. KMart has already been hit, likewise Safeway, Service Merchandise, Ames, (and department stores like JC Pennies & Sears) etc. For those at least 35 years old, think back to your childhood - are the big chains of that era still going strong? Dozens of regional grocery and discount chains have been killed by unions.

Just something to think about.

W

BadBoyBenny
04-03-2004, 10:20 AM
I don't think the unions will ever get ahold of Walmart. On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if they expand throughout California and then start closing stores because they see their workman's comp claims skyrocket.

Cyrus
04-03-2004, 10:34 AM
"The unions unionize their employees and start to suck the chain dry with excessive frills."

Like your name sake, that idiot who's currently occupying the White House, you have no idea what you are talking about. And that's putting it mildly.

I am aware of the many abuses of union power. But check the literature and check the data for pete's sakes, Mr Prezident! There is no shred of evidence for what you are saying - at all.

I assume you are ignorant, like so many other things, of the studies showing the better performance of corporations within the same industry that, for various reasons, pay their employees generally higher wages. I would refer you to Thaler but you would not know where to look.

Thank you for listening, Mr Prezident.

(Mr Prezident? Mr Prezident?? He's asleep goddamn it.)

Rushmore
04-03-2004, 11:16 AM
Honest question for Cyrus:

How do you feel about the teachers unions, in particular?

Just sincerely curious.

whiskeytown
04-03-2004, 11:28 AM
Wal-mart is the epitome of corporate greed gone foul...

they have lawsuits filed vs. them in over 25 states for mandatory overtime - when they come into a community, they destroy 3 real wage jobs for every 2 part time jobs they create - (technically, full time to them is 28 hrs a week) -
no health plan for 2 yrs - and then the premiums are so high you couldn't afford it anyways..

if a union does form (like one did in a meat packers division) - people are rerouted and drummed out for inane reasons -

don't take my word for it...read Frontline's expose of Walmart for yourselves

http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_walmart.html

BTW, Jim Hightower has a great section on this in his book "They've Stolen Our Country and it's Time to Take it Back" - many communities HAVE successfully fought Wal-mart from coming into their communities...of course, more then a few have had to deal with some exceptionally unsavory tactics from Walmart flacks... - (in one town, after trying to unsuccessfully sneak in, Wal-Mart petitioned for a town referumdum, and then managed to write the ballot in such a way where a No vote brought Walmart in, and a Yes vote turned it down...puts what happened in Florida in 2000 to shame

luckily enough people were able to educate the masses in time regarding the initative where it was soundly defeated - by people voting yes /images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.alternet.org/print.html?StoryID=12962

I will never shop at Walmart - ever - ever - ever -

RB

GWB
04-03-2004, 01:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
if a union does form (like one did in a meat packers division) - people are rerouted and drummed out for inane reasons -



[/ QUOTE ]

This just shows that Wal-Mart knows its days are numbered, and they are trying to make it last as long as possible. Meanwhile, the unions are trying to crush Wal-Mart and the image of Wal-Mart (note the spin of the quote above).

From reading this thread, it appears the unions are well on the way to succeeding (like they did with KMart et al.).

W

adios
04-03-2004, 01:34 PM
Point well taken about being a political force but there are also political forces lined up against Walmart as well. The reality is that denying Walmart the right to sell it's products to support higher wages at competitors and higher prices amounts to subsidization of those higher wage workers through an extra tax on those who have to buy the higher priced goods. Are there any cost-benefit analysis available that would provide insight? I hate shopping at Walmart and rarely do I enter one btw.

whiskeytown
04-03-2004, 02:24 PM
a community may decide it wishes to invest dollars within itself rather then allow them to flow outwards - (in the same way a country may decide to sell us less oil and keep more for itself)

a local economy supports itself, provides living wages, and keeps some money/goods/resources within the community.

Wal-mart, On the other hand, doesn't do those things...it pays for no local advertising dollars, pays no living wages, and rather then reinvesting/spending some of the money taken in back within it's own community, it decides to siphon it all back to Bentonville -

the question isn't whether an artifical tax on local businesses is being created - the issue is do you wish your local dollars to be reinvested in the local community, or taken away to make the Waltons top the richest people in the world again for another year. - On one hand, the goods are cheaper...on the other hand, the income in the community goes down, because wal-mart jobs are McJobs -

A community does have the right to decide whether to allow certain businesses within it's city limits (for example, adult bookstores or liquor establishments) - the same should apply to stores that come in and use their monopolistic influence to destroy competition.

in addition, a community should have the right to decide whether it chooses to allow an employer to come into it's community with a tremendously large history of worker violations and human rights abuses both on the local level (cheating workers out of wages) and foreign (pressuring customers to manufacture equipment in sweatshops in China)

you can subsidize your local economy, or you can subsidize multi billionaires...

RB

scalf
04-03-2004, 02:28 PM
/images/graemlins/blush.gif HEY; IF YA DON'T LIKE WAL MART; DUH.. THEN JUST DO NOT SHOP THERE...

REAL EZ ANSWER..

lol

this is scary..ya do not like what people freely choose to do with their money...so you legislate against them having the right to spend their money as they wish..(i.e. at wal mart or any competetor.)

kinda sounds like someone who sez: "we can't let people play poker , they'll just lose their money and become thieves."..

reallly people..let the marketplace decide...vote with your dollars...

gosh..a bunch commie card players..

lol..shame on ya..

let freedom ring..

gl /images/graemlins/grin.gif

andyfox
04-03-2004, 02:32 PM
Apparently, there is an agreement between the Republicans and the Democrtis. on the workers' comp issue, according to today's paper. Haven't read the article yet, but I know the Governator has made it his top priority.

whiskeytown
04-03-2004, 02:40 PM
this is an inaccurate argument...

you're comparing individual freedoms in society vs. corporate rights within a community -

corporate rights have bought much more influence and freedom then you and I can ever afford - so what can we do? - we can attempt to vote the bastards who sold them those rights out of office...but we also can allow our communities to decide which businesses they want within the borders of their township/county -

when Walmart doesn't come in, it's cause of voter referundums and local political action.... - screw letting the marketplace decide - let the community decide -

since when did voting with dollars become more important then voting with a vote?

RB

adios
04-03-2004, 02:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
a community may decide it wishes to invest dollars within itself rather then allow them to flow outwards - (in the same way a country may decide to sell us less oil and keep more for itself)

a local economy supports itself, provides living wages, and keeps some money/goods/resources within the community.

Wal-mart, On the other hand, doesn't do those things...it pays for no local advertising dollars, pays no living wages, and rather then reinvesting/spending some of the money taken in back within it's own community, it decides to siphon it all back to Bentonville -

[/ QUOTE ]

That's probably way too extreme, I'd point out that Walmart pays taxes and collects sales taxes. But that can be part of a cost-benefit analysis.

[ QUOTE ]
the question isn't whether an artifical tax on local businesses is being created - the issue is do you wish your local dollars to be reinvested in the local community, or taken away to make the Waltons top the richest people in the world again for another year. - On one hand, the goods are cheaper...on the other hand, the income in the community goes down, because wal-mart jobs are McJobs -

[/ QUOTE ]

Indicating a cost-benefit analysis would be useful and helpful.

[ QUOTE ]
A community does have the right to decide whether to allow certain businesses within it's city limits (for example, adult bookstores or liquor establishments) - the same should apply to stores that come in and use their monopolistic influence to destroy competition.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all sure about the legalities but it would seem that zoning and such is in the purveyance of the community.

[ QUOTE ]
in addition, a community should have the right to decide whether it chooses to allow an employer to come into it's community with a tremendously large history of worker violations and human rights abuses both on the local level (cheating workers out of wages) and foreign (pressuring customers to manufacture equipment in sweatshops in China)

[/ QUOTE ]

Then that case should be made and Walmart should have it's day to present it's side. Seems fair and balanced doesn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
you can subsidize your local economy, or you can subsidize multi billionaires...

[/ QUOTE ]

Again implying that a cost benefit-analysis is useful and desired with both sides presenting their analysis. I actually don't think we're in disagreement basically. In subsidizing the local economy, who benefits and by how much, who pays the costs and how much. Likewise with Walmart.

whiskeytown
04-03-2004, 03:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Indicating a cost-benefit analysis would be useful and helpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I shall see what I can do...I'm not an economist - Wal-Mart does these sort of things before coming into a community, but they generally don't reveal the results of their research, and sometimes try to push ofscuated data on city governments who aren't qualified to understand what it says. - but there are a lot of resources on the net...I shall try to find one for you.


[ QUOTE ]
Then that case should be made and Walmart should have it's day to present it's side. Seems fair and balanced doesn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

it does, and quite often, it ends up going to the city or county govt. for a vote or referundum....what's interesting are all the dirty and sneaky tricks Wal-Mart execs try to pull in the meantime, including rewriting ballots, attempting to delay votes when it realizes it can't win in an attempt to further press on, and in some cases, taking local people and deceiving them into being mouthpieces for the corporation coming into the community...

for example - the Inglewood story has an interesting twist

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18304

I shall do some digging on that cost benefit analysis for ya - if testimonials of communities who have been devestated by Wal-mart, rampant labor violations, and illegal firings of union organizers isn't enough to dissuade someone from supporting a Wal-Mart in their local community, I shall try to find something more suitable to the bottom line -

RB

adios
04-03-2004, 05:26 PM
Any info is appreciated but I realize it could be hard to come up with. However, I will say that IMO corporations that sell nationally are generally good for the consummer not bad.

scalf
04-03-2004, 05:51 PM
/images/graemlins/blush.gif..there is one point somehow you miss..

you are legislating to me where i can spend my money..you are in your devine wisdom saying you know what is better for me (and my community.)

this horrifies me....(no joke)

but you are a "nice guy" trying to do "the right thing".

heaven help us from the do-gooders..

but seriously; what do you say to the person, who says to you :"i'd like the freedom to choose where i shop"

and, with a store like wal-mart; saying you can drive 50 miles or so is not an acceptable answer...

the bottom line...wal-mart built a better mouse trap; a much better distribution system (which even now is hugely being revamped by requiring vendors to have wireless readable tags on all they sell to wal-mart ..<hint , big investment opp here>)..

someone actually feels they have the right to keep me from shopping where i want...disgusting , that someone has that audacity..

but i am happy; a wal-mart 10 miles down the road...as my wife says: "their prices are lower."....

that's what really upsets their competitors to be..

lol

let freedom ring..

gl /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

whiskeytown
04-03-2004, 07:09 PM
that argument works both ways...

one could say who says you have the right to tell me where to shop...one could also say who tells me you have the right to put up a business in my neighborhood that could be detrimental (whether it be adult, cuthroat, or even a car dump)

the answer to both the consumer and business is the same...if you don't like it, go somewhere else - but neither addresses the tradeoff of free enterprise vs. community rights -

and in any case where Wal-Mart has been kept out, it has been the COMMUNITY that has made that decision...usually by initative or referumdum - as for myself, I have never done anything short of giving people info about their corrupt business practices and long term detrimental effect on the community... you may do the opposite and tell them about the low, low prices and wonderful jobs paying 7 bucks an hour, but don't make it into an issue of me taking away your rights, cause it's not. -

so you see, I am not telling you how to spend your money. In most of the cases where walmart was kept out of a community, it was done so by a majority and thru the democratic process. Not to say it won't sometimes go thru, or that Wal-Mart Corp. won't use devious underhanded, yet barely legal means to pull it off, but it will most likely be a democratic process that keeps it in or takes it out, and that's fine.

so chill...I don't give a [censored] where you spend your money or how you do it (Walmart does though...try buying USA manufactured merchandice, anti-war reading material or albums with explicit lyrics there /images/graemlins/laugh.gif) -

...just don't destroy my local economy cause you want stuff at 5 percent off, otherwise, we'll be settling it at the ballot box. Minneapolis has been fairly fortunate in that we were able to keep Wal-Mart in the fringes and suburbs - one could say Target isn't much better, but then Target doesn't have a long standing tradition of bilking it's employees out of hundreds of hours of overtime.

RB

whiskeytown
04-03-2004, 07:25 PM
yep...a great inventory tracking system...

one that will allow them to track your every purchase, and the data can be filed away and stored and sold to whoever. These tags also don't stop working when you leave the store. Nor do they stop working for the govt.

You're right...super technology from the country who brought you the Patriot act /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif - great investment opportunity...I've been looking for some place to dump the last of my privacy rights.

RB

HDPM
04-03-2004, 11:49 PM
You do not have a right to cast a vote taking away people's property. So it is irrelevant whether the people don't want a wal mart. If they didn't want it they should either buy all the land or buy wal mart. Wal mart should be able to build anywhere. In fact, most zoning laws should be eliminated. Only nuisance lawsuits should regulate land use in the mose egregious cases. Like a 100,000 head pig farm in a residential area.

My zoning statute would have 3 zones:

Zone 1: Nuclear waste facilities, pig farms, rendering plants.

Zone 2: Heavy industry

Zone 3: Other.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

HDPM
04-04-2004, 12:07 AM
Just to tell you I backed up some of my blather when I was unfortunate enough to be on my local planning and zoning commission. I fought for individual rights whenever I could. And even in a small town in a conservative state, the Stalinist forces at work were amazing. people are always quick to try to use force to make others use property as those wielding the power see fit. It is disgusting to watch. The collectivist instict seems to come out in planning and zoning. I hated it, but I managed to keep a few people from having to pave city streets at their expense and got a business or two a sign the commies wanted to ban. I loved it when the city bureaucrats would yell at me after meetings using third grade teacher logic. "Do you have any idea what you did there? What if everybody comes in now and asks for a sign, variance, break, etc....?" And I'd say, "Well, I figure I'll vote to give it to 'em." /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Boris
04-04-2004, 02:21 AM
lol. haha. Wal-mart is giant pipeline for commie goods.

lol.

sounds like we have a bunch if commie sympathizers shopping at wal-mart.

lol.

shame on them.

JTrout
04-04-2004, 09:34 PM
Survival of the fittest, in a free country. Those who lose their jobs because Wal-Mart came to town will have to toughen up to survive. Get creative. Take risks. Or at least learn to drive a Wal-Mart truck.

Some of these job-losers will come up with new ideas, new businesses. They will add to the community.

Where I live, (Mississippi) many people will drive up to 50 miles once a week or so to shop at a Supercenter. Groceries, necessities, prescription drugs, etc. They save, so they make the drive.

I grew up in a town of about 4,000. When Wal-Mart came to town, it added much more than it took away.

I spend about $5,000 a year in Wal-Mart. Most of which buys American-made products. I'm not sure, but I would bet that most of the products I purchase in a place other than Wal-Mart are made elsewhere.

Whiskeytown, your thoughts seem genuine, and well-thought out. And you probably know more about all this than I do. (That ain't saying much /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

But reasonable people can disagree.
I wonder if those towns that went belly up in Texas would have done the same with or without Wal-Mart.

KJS
04-05-2004, 12:47 AM
I've seen this method in Thailand. Its not pleasant for a lot of property owners. Imagine buying your house in zone "Other" and two months later you are surrounded by a 24 hour convenient store and/or restaurant, a bar, a disco, a motorcyle or car repair shop that opens at 6AM, or a big huge store like Wal Mart. You saying that's OK with you? You got a thick skin /images/graemlins/wink.gif

KJS

JTrout
04-05-2004, 01:10 AM
A good price for HEFAP:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?cat=18762&dept=3920&product_id=735576& path=0%3A3920%3A18762%3A18807%3A18821%3A18825%3A21 492

adios
04-05-2004, 02:26 AM
I used to set foot in a Walmart about once every 6 months at the most. There's a food item that my wife likes that I can only get at Walmart so I stop in once a week now. I also pick up another food item that's 46% more expensive at the local grocery. Some of the stuff at Walmart is stupid cheap. Still don't find shopping there a pleasant experience though.

HDPM
04-05-2004, 10:41 AM
Sure, because housing prices would go down dramatically and you could still file a nuisance lawsuit in my system. Homeowners could also get together and build deed restricted communities to prevent this kind of thing. The most noticeable thing you would see is that regular people might be able to live in the more expensive cities I bet.

andyfox
04-05-2004, 12:36 PM

Cyrus
04-06-2004, 03:48 PM
"How do you feel about the teachers unions, in particular? Just sincerely curious."

It depends.

(Well, this is a poker website, whaddya expect?)

Teachers unions can be a good thing, when the conditions warrant their existence and strength. In many third world countries, for instance. But even in first world countries, including most western democracies, the unions primary offeringshould be to ensure that teachers are not judged by monetary considerations alone. Teaching should be treated as a social function, first, and income-making job, second. Same as the medical profession. (Yes, an idealist. You asked for my honest opinion.)

There's a lot to be said in favor of teachers' unions.

Where they fail badly is when it comes to a point where : the union will not allow teachers to be fired even when they are clearly incompetent or have broken laws (or even regulations); the union will not allow for independent auditing and evaluating of the teacher's performance (unions usually prefer the supposedly humane but truly dumb system of seniority); the union strikes once every month for irrelevant, political reasons, e.g. to protest the war in Iraq (I agree with them about Iraq but there are limits -- and my kid wants to, ya know, learn!). Etc.

So. It depends.

Rushmore
04-06-2004, 03:59 PM
I was hoping for an even-handed response. Thank you.

I think that, generally-speaking, the teachers unions have been the single most destructive force when it comes to the (mis)education of America's children. The tenure system DESTROYS incentives to do a good job.

Anyway, I can assure you, no child of mine will be placed into the ever-nurturing, ever-incompetent arms of the public school system in America.

Thanks for the input.

adios
04-06-2004, 05:03 PM
My mother was a school teacher for over 30 years. Her union negotiated benefits allowed her and my father to retire in their late 50's. My mother passed away very recently and my father paid off a house from her union negotiated benefits and with Social Security and her retirement benefits from her union membership he'll live comfortably. I have mixed feeling myself about unions but when I look at what they've done for my father now and my mother in her retirement I have to be grateful for what they meant to my parents.

Cyrus
04-06-2004, 11:29 PM
"My mother was a school teacher for over 30 years. Her union negotiated benefits allowed her and my father to retire in their late 50's. My mother passed away very recently and my father paid off a house from her union negotiated benefits and with Social Security and her retirement benefits from her union membership he'll live comfortably. I have mixed feeling myself about unions but when I look at what they've done for my father now and my mother in her retirement I have to be grateful for what they meant to my parents."

Yes, teachers, like doctors, as I wrote, should not have to worry excessively about monetary problems. Not altogether above them, not totally absorbed by them either. This is where the unions (should) come in handy, in order to redress the imbalance in a modern society which recognizes only barbarius, i.e. monetary/financial, criteria (sometimes masqueradings as "efficiency"). Such an example of rightly benefitting from a union is obviously of your parents, who, as teachers, benefited from the (basic) humane stuff guaranteed by union action.

It's not unlike agents' work, for people who should not busy themeselves too much with money and, instead, concentrate on their creative work. Sports agents, movie actors agents, writers' agents, etc. I know that this immediately reminds everyone of a bunch of horror stories on agents but those are the abuses of the system. The agent system is well-intentioned in theory but gets abused quite a lot, same as the unionisation of various professions, including the teachers'. (And you know that the system turns, in effect, against its original purpose when you learn that even active politicans have agents.)

Glad to hear of your first-hand experience with a union's benefit.

andyfox
04-07-2004, 01:07 AM
From AP 9:38 PM:

INGLEWOOD – Early returns showed a Wal-Mart-backed ballot initiative that would circumvent a City Council decision against building a giant Supercenter store in this Los Angeles suburb trailing Tuesday night.

With 10 of 29 precincts reporting, Inglewood voters were voting against the initiative, with 70.1 percent voting 'no' and 29.8 percent voting 'yes,' said Gabby Contreras of the city clerk's office.

"It looks good right now, but I think it's still early," said Danny Feingold with the Coalition for a Better Inglewood, a group opposing the initiative.

Residents of the working-class community went to the polls after days of debate over the measure, which opponents said would clear the way for Wal-Mart to build its planned Supercenter store next to Hollywood Park racetrack while skirting zoning, traffic and environmental reviews.

The City Council last year blocked the proposed shopping center, which would include both a traditional Wal-Mart and other stores, prompting the Bentonville, Ark.-based company to collect more than 10,000 signatures to force the vote.

The vote was not likely to settle the debate, which pitted religious leaders, community activists and unions against the world's largest retailer. Opponents vowed legal action if the measure passed.

Wal-Mart has argued in Inglewood and elsewhere in California that its stores create jobs and said residents should be able to decide for themselves whether they want the stores in their community.

But opponents say the Supercenters amount to low-wage, low-benefit job mills that displace better-paying jobs as independent retailers are driven out of business. They also fear the super-sized stores will contribute to suburban sprawl and jammed roadways.

Objections to Wal-Mart Stores Inc. have surfaced elsewhere around the country, including Chicago, where the City Council recently stalled a measure to approve the first Wal-Mart inside city limits because of concerns about the company's labor practices.

The company succeeded in lobbying residents in Contra Costa County, in suburban San Francisco. Residents there voted last month to allow a Supercenter. But Wal-Mart also lost a vote that day to allow it to open another store near San Diego.

andyfox
04-07-2004, 12:54 PM
The vote was nearly 2:1 against. Perhaps Wal-Mart made a mistake by having the proposition state that is would not be subject tothe usual zoning requirements, such as an environmental impact survey, etc. The fliers handed out by the "Coalition for a Better Ingelwood" said, "This is the City of Inglewood, NOT the City of Wal-Mart," and that a "yes" vote on the initiative would:

-override any vote by our elected officials on the project

-eliminate the Environmental Impact Report requirement, normally mandated by State law.

-make it almost impossible to have a public hearing to answer questions by local residents.

-require that any change be approved by an unprecedednted 2/3 vote of Inglewood voters.

Set minimal standards of traffic, air pollution, job quality, hiring, and other important community conerns that should not be left up to a private corporation.

-set a legal precedent for the entire State of California allowing corporations to bypass the democratic public process and prevent us from self-reliance and community dialogue!

I don't know the local dynamics involved, but I'm shocked Wal-mart lost by such a wide margin. I would have thought a sophisticated mutinational coroporation could have beaten the locals handily, especially outspending them almost 10:1. Turns out they spent about $250/vote.

whiskeytown
04-07-2004, 02:18 PM
and even though the vote was decided by a 2:1 margin in the community thru a democratic process, and it would have allowed Wal-Mart to skirt local laws and regulations while using their financial positions to violate the law regarding employee treatment,

some dumbass is gonna come on here saying they're taking away his right to do whatever he wants...LOL

RB