So whats with smooth calling AA preflop?

[Oblivious]

I saw people doing this non-stop on my trip to vegas last weekend. The worst thing was, they were doing it in the worst possible situations: in early position at tables playing either tight or loose. A couple times i flopped a pair of kings or queens, got raised on the turn and had to call down just to be shown slowplayed aces. It made money from me because I was so unused to seeing it, but it certainly cant make more money that raising preflop to get the really crappy hands out of there. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Oblivious]

BTW... i think i saw people making this play more often that raising preflop!

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
but it certainly cant make more money tha[n] raising preflop to get the really crappy hands out of there.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise AA utg, and know the guy after you has 72o, would you really prefer he folded, rather than called your raise? What if the next 2 people had 72o and 98o. Wouldn't you want them both to call rather than fold? There is, however, a point where your EV becomes lower with each additional caller. Hot and cold, you want about 8 callers. In an actual game, I'd imagine 4-5 to be ideal, even though it may seem bad at times.

The big idea is simply that a raise will get the most money in the pot with the best hand.

[daryn]

i think even in a regular game you want as many callers as possible.

[Mike Haven]

as i was reading this i was given a KK at stars, utg+1

i open-raised and they all folded except the BB who folded to my flop bet

maybe i should call next time?

not

[toots]

But having more people stay in the hand increases the odds that the aces will be cracked.

The question then is whether the increased money in the pot (from not driving people out) offsets the risk of having the aces cracked.

[Mike Haven]

i just ran some figures for AA utg, in the long run

for the sake of simplicity, let's say everyone bets 100 each

against 6 players you win 43% of 600 = 258

against 5 players you win 49% of 500 = 245

against 4 players you win 56% of 400 = 224

against 3 players you win 64% of 300 = 192

against 2 players you win 73% of 200 = 146

against 1 player you win 85% of 100 = 85

this means on average every time you put 100 in the middle you win 258 against 6 opponents and only 85 against one oppponent - you'll only drag pots half as often against six opponents as against one, but they will be 700 pots instead of 200 pots

[scotnt73]

if im in very early poisition i almost always just limp and then reraise if it gets raised.

[pudley4]

If you are against 9 opponents, all of whom stay in until the river, your EV is slightly less than if you only had 8 opponents. This is the only case where having more opponents actually hurts you.

The chart that shows this has been posted here before.

[nykenny]

when i raise UTG with AA, i want the following hands to call, at the same time, A3, A5, 32, 42, 52, 52, 53, 43, 44...

now is it possible for me to lose???

[toots]

Good numbers. Thanks!

[Jeffro]

yes

[juris]

to a 5-9 straight.

to a flush

to a 5-9 straight flush

[Mike Haven]

thank you

nothing is simple in poker, and although the previous numbers were correct (i hope!) in an academically mathematical manner, poker is a game where your winning the game is measured only by the gross amount of money won, not by how much you win per unit staked

taking AA utg again, and 100 unit bets, if there happened to be a KK and a QQ out against you, plus four other random hands, by using a simulation programme you will see that if you don't open-raise and all call you will win 38% of the pots

38% x 600 = 228

if you open-raise and only the two pairs call you'll win 67% of the pots

67% x 400 = 264

if you're lucky and are reraised and capped by the two pairs you'll win

67% x 800 = 528

in fact, what was not clear from my previous post is that it would be a disaster if you limped, the two pairs limped, and the other four folded

67% x 200 = 134

conclusion

when you have AA in early position your goal is to lure as many opponents as you can into the pot for as much as you can get them to bet pre-flop

as with many other poker strategies, your action "depends" - if your open-raise will not deter callers, raise - if your early open-raises are just winning the blinds, limp - if there is a chronic raiser sitting in late position, limp and reraise - etc - etc

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
when i raise UTG with AA, i want the following hands to call, at the same time, A3, A5, 32, 42, 52, 52, 53, 43, 44...

now is it possible for me to lose???


[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, but I don't think you would get much action. Try KK, KK, QQ, QQ, JJ, JJ, TT, TT. Of course the TT could make straights and the KK's could make a flush, but I think you might like the action a little better.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
for the sake of simplicity, let's say everyone bets 100 each

against 6 players you win 43% of 600 = 258

against 5 players you win 49% of 500 = 245

against 4 players you win 56% of 400 = 224

against 3 players you win 64% of 300 = 192

against 2 players you win 73% of 200 = 146

against 1 player you win 85% of 100 = 85



[/ QUOTE ]

Again, these numbers are all assuming the hands are played hot and cold.

People that flop nothing will fold, and people that flop 2 pair will take the biggest pots, so hot-and-cold EV is not a perfect indicator.

[balkii]

The ultimate AA slowplay, from my trip to a local casino last week.

I pick up TT in EP and openraise. Old guy with a foreign accent to my left coldcalls, and we're HU to the flop. FLop comes 9 high rags. I bet, he throws some chips in the pot, too many for a call but not enough for a raise. Dealer asks if he's raising. He says no and takes some chips back. Turn is a rag. I bet, he calls. River is a rag, board is still 9 high. I value bet my pair of tens, waiting to drag the pot. He CALLS, and tables AA.

I say "nice hand."