Too quick to fold on Turn?

4-8

The game is loose (average 6 see flop) and mainly passive.

I have AhJh on button. 5 callers to me, and I raise. Small blind calls, Big Blind reraises, everyone calls. So 8 of us see the flop.


Flop: Qs10s10d

UTG bets 2 more callers to me. I call. Big blind calls.

So there are 5 players and 14.5 big bets in the pot.


Turn is a 9c.

UTG bets, next to act raises to $16. I quickly fold.

At the time my thinking was

- I believe UTG has something to be betting - at least a Q. (My assessment at the time - tight older gentleman).

- I don’t know what the raiser has. I have not seen him play much. So far he seems to be moderately tight and aggressive.

- I am not going to pay 2 big bets to draw to a gutshot K with the 2 spades and a pair on board. My perhaps too quick feeling discounted the 8 as an out.

- Overall I just had the feeling that even thought the pot was big, there were too many ways to be beat even if I got my card.


Thinking about it after, it does not seem such a clear cut fold.

I am getting 8.75:1 pot odds (assuming UTG does not reraise) to go for 6 non spade Kings or Eights (7:1). However a K might make a full house. An eight might just give me a losing straight. A non spade A might be an out if the raiser was on something like Js9s.


How would you play it?


What happened: After I folded, Big Blind and UTG folded and the raiser took the pot. I do not know what he had.

I later learned that I was wrong about UTG – he was not very tight – would play Q6 suited from early positions.


Thanks for any responses (this is my first post).

I think you played it right. The pot could even get raised again after you cold-call. You could also be drawing dead. I don't think you have enough of an overlay between the current pot odds and your non-flush drawing odds (which are about 7-to-1) to cover the additional money you lose when you hit but don't win.

No, too slow to fold on the flop.


The cardinal rule of hold'em: if you're hand doesn't fit the flop, dump it right there. You have nothing on the flop except a inside straight draw, and the board is paired. Furthermore, you were the preflop-raiser and then somebody bet INTO you on the flop, meaning there's a reasonable chance they have a 10; especially with the flop being seen by 5 people. Anyone with a 10 is drawing to a boat as you draw to your straight (if the are playing J 10, a very commonly played hand, you're drawing dead).


Throw this hand away. Perfectly played, it might be microscopically profitable, but only if you play it perfectly every time, and there's way too much room for error here.


Drop it on the flop.

i wouldve folded.


the raise killed your odds, and your pretty much drawing to 3 cards. 3 Ks, for the str8.


if noone raised, i mightve taken one off, but the raise only gives you 9-1 on a 3 outer.


if an A hits it could give someone else a str8, a FH could be there, and if the Ksuited hits a flush is possible...


good fold...


b

He's getting 27:1 when it's to him on the flop. There of course is a decent chance the BB will check-raise. But he has 3 outs with the non-spade kings, which he is 14.7:1 to hit on the turn. He is getting almost twice that to take a card off. I think that is enough to cover the possibility of a BB check raise.


If he doesn't hit on the turn and there's action, he folds. If he hits and there is a bet and a raise to him then maybe someone flopped a full house or hit one with KT on the turn, and he still folds. Doesn't seem too tricky to play.

It was a good fold on the turn. If the raise didn't happen I would have called one bet, of course. But the raise kills the odds.

On the flop, it would have been wrong to fold. To go for an inside straight draw you only need odds of 11:1 and you were getting way more than that. So you did the right thing by taking a card off.


Tim

I think that a fold on the flop is probably not horrible poker. You have a gutshot straight draw and one overcard. You're drawing for:


<UL>

* 3 A's. One of these puts a flush on the board. All of them put broadway on the board for the always popular KJ. Also potentially fills up AT.


* 4 K's. One of which puts the flush on the board. Also potentially fills up KT.

[/list]

on the turn:

<UL>

* The only outs you picked up were the 3's, which would likely lead to a split pot at best, a full house or flush for someone else at worst.

[/list]


Overall, I think a fold on the flop is probably best and a fold on the turn is certainly best.

Seems like the thread believes this is a gutshot. Am I missing something.


With the nine on the turn, an 8 or K straigtens the hand. In fact I would prefer the 8 because it's less likely to improve the other hands.


So the odds are 5.75-1 say 6 to 1 for easy math and coun't the possible FH (T9 suited is a definate possiblity as is QT s in a loose game). And, you have the flush bluff at your disposal because you're the last to act. Note the bluff is more effective when you raise the river, rather than opening the betting.


Personally I've learned the hard way that this board is trouble when my only hope of making a hand is on a draw. So, unless i have a piece of the board I would tend to fold on the flop rather than hanging around.


If I do play this (will in certain situations), I think a re-raise on the turn may be a stronger option to get yourself heads-up with the raisor. With the re-raise on the turn there's 18 BB in the pot. With implied pot odds, and the added outs of bluffing I think this play has a postive EV. But, it's only for specific situations where you have a decent read, that your re-raise will knock out the BB. And, if I've been showing down some very strong hands, I know my bluffing "outs" are good as well.