I Slowplayed

[MaxPower]

I don't slowplay much anymore, but here is one I did. Any comments?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: MaxPower is MP2 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MaxPower calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MaxPower calls, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MaxPower calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (11.16 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MaxPower raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (17.16 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MaxPower raises</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 21.16 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 21.16 BB, between UTG+1 and MaxPower.</font>

[Joe Tall]

You should be playing this hand this way. Other than maybe capping when it comes back on the flop, I think there is no better way to play it.

Nice hand,
Joe Tall

[Catch of the Day]

I would be mucking 77 for 2 bets PF in MP2 from an EP raiser...

That maybe not be right as I have heard the argument for the value of PP's but I thought that this is a pretty cut and dry fold.

Why isn't it?

Catch-

[Dylan Wade]

Well you've certainly picked a good spot to call the flop here. It appears as if you may be caught between two raisers on the flop...and with top set you know you have the best hand. You're going to win this hand so often that you want the pot as large as possible. Capping the flop has small value compared compared to the mere possibility of getting three-bets in on the turn (or two bets called in more spots). Hopefully your call will entice two-bets to you on the turn.. but playing the flop faster may get the turn checked to you.

Anyway, top set on this flop is such a huge hand... and your opponents are firing away, there's no reason to slow them down. !! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[biggambler]

1. He calls two bets before the flop with only a pair of 7s, when their are still 5 players behind him that could raise again?
2. The flop comes with a 7 and unco-ordinated. There are 13 bets in the pot at this point.
This hand reminds me of so many players slow playing and then crying when one of his opponents winds up with a pair of kings or jacks in their hand.
Therefore, 3 bet, get as many of them out of this pot as you can.

[Nottom]

I agree.

[Dylan Wade]

I think if the table were as typically as tight as it appears to be.... folding might be the best choice (Esp if UTG limp and UTG+1 raise has significant meaning). However, there are many players behind here, and it's likely Max was anticipating loose calls in a few more spots. We are at Party, after all.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore, 3 bet, get as many of them out of this pot as you can.

[/ QUOTE ] Why would you want that? I'd want people to pay up, since they're most likely drawing dead. A 3-bet scares them away, and clues everyone in that you're holding a set. I think he played this great, and the only other I might have done is to cap the flop the final time it came around.

[Ralph Wiggum]

So then how many callers do you need to justify this call? I also thought that mucking this hand was pretty standard, since you need to make back like 10-12 times your PF investment.

[Nottom]

You have a limper, the raiser, and a cold-caller already. Cold-callers tend to create more cold-callers so there is a good chance you get one or 2 more people in the pot in your average game. With all those players in the pot you shouldn't have too much trouble making up the needed bets post flop if you catch a 7.

I think the call here is fine.

[colgin]

I think you played this just fine although capping the flop when it comes back to you would also be good. Nice hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DonWaade]

As a rule, I dont usually like to slowplay flopped sets UNLESS it is top set. Then I think you have to slowplay them. Good play. I think it is good, despite the protests from other posters, that you did not cap the flop. IMO it gave you more action on the big streets.

[Dylan Wade]

Implied odds my friend. The advantage of loose callers here isn't so much their contribution to the pot Pre-flop, but also the big bets they will put in on the later streets. Let's not forget that 77 has a lot more equity here than 10% if UTG,UTG+1 can be put on a wide range of hands. Consider the flops where there are no paint cards, 77 will also often have high value here...

Now if we're looking at two tight limpers and a bunch of tight players behind, the call isn't as pretty. In that situation our 77 might be dominated, killing our pot equity... and we can't count on loose implied odds.

But we're playing Small stakes Party poker after all, and 77 if we give our opponents too much credit, we'll be leaving money at the table..

[Dylan Wade]

I think he should play 55 and 22 the same. Although generally top set is nice, I think the coordination (or lack thereof) of this flop is more appealing. Nobody has a piece of this board. Anyone who's betting at is is certainly behind trip 2s. Most likely, we're looking at an overpair vs some overcards.

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand reminds me of so many players slow playing and then crying when one of his opponents winds up with a pair of kings or jacks in their hand.
Therefore, 3 bet, get as many of them out of this pot as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, because, like, a 3-bet here is somehow going to magically make overpairs like KK and JJ fold...

They've got two outs (maybe). Let 'em stick around for the turn. If they hit a higher set, they hit a higher set. There's nothing you can do to make them fold this flop.

[tripdad]

gambler,

he has the stone cold nuts on the flop. why wouldn't he want as many callers as possible? i would be tickled for JJ or KK to call down.

having said that, i would have gone ahead and capped...the other two would probably have not even noticed.

as for the preflop call, it could go either way. you usually have enough people in to see the flop to call one raise, and actually, your call will subsequently encourage others to call with smaller pocket pairs or even suited connectors, as they will now be getting odds to do so.

cheers!

[Homer]

I might cap the flop, depending on how likely it is that UTG+1 will check-raise or lead bet the turn with an overpair. If capping will cause UTG+1 to check-call the turn and river, then I like the way you played it. Either way I don't three-bet the flop.

-- Homer

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand reminds me of so many players slow playing and then crying when one of his opponents winds up with a pair of kings or jacks in their hand.
Therefore, 3 bet, get as many of them out of this pot as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]


are you implying that with a flop of 752 or whatever it was, KK or JJ is going to fold?

this is a perfect example of why setting rules is bad. if you say "I'll never slowplay" then you simply blind yourself to the situations where this is a good play. in TOP sklansky writes that a flopped set is sometimes a good time to slowplay. this is one of those situations. if he loses it WILL NOT be because he chose to call 2 bets cold on the flop rather than 3-betting

thinking is important in poker. too many people give up the idea of thinking and just make stupid little rules for which they can follow, like a blind dog. rules are fine if you're going to play 1 cent/2 cent your entire life, but if you want to move up, like most of us do, you need to look at each hand as something different. set = always play fast will cost you money

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

I think Max picked a good spot to slowplay here. However, I think if the flop comes two-tone, he should 3-bet it. I try not to screw around with my sets when they're at all vulnerable.

[el_grande]

Well played. I like that you didn't cap the flop. No reason for them to be alerted to your presence for another 3 bucks. Because of your passiveness you were able to raise the turn AND river. How often do you get to do that?

wait a sec... did he have KK? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

I don't see anyone questioning the river raise. Who bets out after calling a raise on the turn unless the river gave them something huge... The guy raised PF. Do you think he did that with KJ? Wishful thinking...

[bisonbison]

If opponent 3-bets the river, then you can begin to ponder.

[el_grande]

Yeah, but why raise? If so, you are hoping he has AA, QQ, or KJ. I don't see any of those based on previous action. AA or QQ checks the river. KJ isn't likely from PF action.

This is important for me to understand because if I raise the turn and someone bets into me on the river, my S.O.P. is to only raise the river with the nuts or close to it.

Here we've got the 3rd nuts, which is good. But everything UTG+1 has done tells me he has KK. Of course he just called the river which means he doesn't have it, but that was the first evidence.

[joker122]

Great point, Stheif.

[MaxPower]

I suppose my reason for raising is that people don't always have the hand they are representing. I figured my hand would be good more than 50% of the time when called and I was prepared to call a reraise.

Perhaps its a little thin, but I wouldn't respect myself in the morning if I couldn't raise this river.

Turns out he had a pair of nines, so he overplayed it a little bit.

[MaxPower]

On the surface this hand doesn't have the conditions needed for slowplaying. The pot is large, there are few cards that will make someone a 2nd best hand, there are a couple of miracle cards out there, and my opponents will not be folding if I 3-bet the flop.

However, there are very likely already two second best hands that have only a small chance of outdrawing me. So I have to balance out maximizing my chances of winning the pot and maximizing the size of the pot via deception. No one here is getting a free or cheap card anyway.

Any overpairs are coming along if I 3-bet, so it doesn't do much to improve my chances of winning, so I think disguising my hand has greater value here.

I posted this because it was unusual. I took a risk and would not be crying if I were outdrawn.

[bicyclekick]

I think capping the flop would be a pretty big mistake. Nobody is folding and you've just SCREAMED set. Why the hell would you want to do that? Let somebody at least bet into you on the turn and you can get in a raise on the big bets, when they are more tied to the pot. Raising the flop is less +ev if you ask me. I just don't think it's right at ALL.

I'm curious what mason or mk would say to this, cause this is one situation i'm pretty sure i'm right on, yet don't agree with the majority.