why is this a skill game? help

i just finished reading HPFAP and i need something explained to me because i don't really understand it.


i play LL hold'em, usually 2-4 and once in awhile 4-8 and have been playing about 8 months. my games are loose passive, with some aggression thrown in for kicks, which according to HPFAP is the best type of game.


in a higher limit game i can see where bluffs, semi-bluffs, semi-bluff raising and all of that strategic stuff could come in handy. but in a game where nearly everyone goes to the turn, if not the river, none of that really matters, you're not folding anyone who has even bottom pair on the flop.


i find myself reduced to 4 actions: raising for value, betting for value, checking with nothing, and of course calling when i have odds to draw (which i nearly always do with so many people in).


this is exactly what my other opponents (who've never touched a book and are just there to "gamble it up") do. they bet when they have a hand, the raise when they have a great hand, and they call when they have just a small piece of the flop.


as a sidenote: when you're playing with loose passives that have rather large swings because of this looseness, dosen't this directly affect your swings? how could it not? if all your opponents are "gambling it up" dosen't if force you to do the same thereby negating most of the skill involved?


please help a newbie. /images/wink.gif

I used to play these games exclusively. Most of

HPFAP does not apply to these games. However two sections are critical to play in these games (1) the starting hands section (2) the section on loose games.


It is my experience that most of the profit in these games simply comes from having better starting requirements than your competition. You can't make fancy plays, but simply being tighter preflop should get you one BB per hour.

The other key point as S&M mention is forcing players to suckout against the odds. Which means a lot of check raising and sometimes delaying your aggression until the turn in large multiway pots.

However, I can not stress enough the importance of following fairly tight starting requirements in these games. If you fall into the low limit trap of playing QTo in almost any position then you are a goner.


As S&M mention most of the fancier plays do not work well in large fields. LL limit play is fairly straightforward. Key is to start with good hands and time your aggression to make opponents overpay for their draws/outs.


hope that helps.

- starting hands

- watch pot odds

- watch implied odds

- know when to release

- pay attention to position

- keep tabs on your opponents' style

- don't appear too serious


Above all, simply play a numbers game: i.e. "I have ATo in mid position with 2 callers, and expect at least 2 more calls behind me with a slight chance of a raise. What do I do?" At the flop, you make more decisions. At the turn, decision again, and same for the river.


By simply playing by the numbers you will do well against these games because your opponents will be playing too many hands and taking them too far. You won't ba making fancy plays, but you will be watching the pot, your cards, the board and where you sit in relation to the bets. This will take down the money, I guarantee it.


Essentially, you play the odds each hand by computing the above. It's much harder said then done, and you can see some really long stretches of winning or losing.


If the game is weak, you could probably beat it using only two simple rules: play only decent to good cards, and play very tight in early position.

You seem to have a grasp of the basics of play in loose games. Though bluffs, semi-bluffs, etc. are close to useless in loose games, there is still skill involved. A few skills useful in a loose game, off the top of my head:


<UL><LI>Starting hand selection.

<LI>Knowledge of the importance of position and how it relates to play.

<LI>Knowledge of when to pursue a draw. (How many of your opponents will chase any staight or flush, no matter how small the pot?)

<LI>Hand reading.

<LI>Manipulating the pot. (E.g., raising to build a pot or cause others to make incorrect calls.)[/list]


Don't dismiss loose games because "advanced" skills are less important. Loose games require skill. Some skills are more important than others. Learning what skills are important and becoming skillful should make you a winning player.

In a loose game, some of your profit comes before the flop.


Mostly, it comes when people call hands that should be raised/folded from the flop onwards. These are mistakes that sometimes cost whole pots but usually amount to playing a very expensive draw.


There are also spots where you will beat an individual hand >80% of the time but they will think they hold a good hand and will pay off. For instance, when you both flop top pair of Kings but your kicker is better than his. I guess preflop play has something to do with this, but there is skill in realizing when you are in this situation and minimizing your losses.

You are correct in that most of the strategies of HEPFAP are of little merit in the games you describe (others have already highlighted the exceptions). As you work upwards in limits the skills highlighted in HEPFAP become more and more important.


For the games you are in, perhaps "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" by Lee jones would be a more useful guide. It is not as long or detailed as HEPFAP, but winning against clueless players does not require complex strategy..


Winning in these games is taking advantage of a a very few chances with odds hugely in your favor. As you move up limits is becomes applying small edges many times more often.


Play your best,

Treefrog