How to deal with a lack of preflop aggression?

Played a little (okay, a lot) at a very loose, usually passive 4-8 w/kill game in Reno over the weekend.


I'm curious as to how the collective thinkers here would deal with this situation:


- Anywhere from 2-5 limpers in front of you; you are in late position (cutoff or button); you hold AQo, AQs, or AJs...call or raise?


- Assume you raised, and are in a multiway pot. Flop is A-rag-rag, rainbow and everyone "checks to the raiser". You bet and only lose one or maybe two players.


- Turn is not scary...it's checked to you, you bet and are checkraised by one of the limpers. Call or 3-bet?


- River does not bring in any draws, and does not pair your kicker...the checkraiser bets. Call or fold?


This exact scenario happened repeatedly (ie, at least 6-7 times in around 10-11 hours of play)over the course of the weekend, including twice to me when I was the preflop raiser in late position.


Each time, the turn checkraiser (not always the same individual player, but always the player that had checkraised) had either AKs or AKo, and had limped with it(?!?!)


Under these circumstances, how comfortable are you all with laying down top pair, decent kicker on the river to one bet?

- Anywhere from 2-5 limpers in front of you; you are in late position (cutoff or button); you hold AQo, AQs, or AJs...call or raise?


AQo call

AQs, AJs raise


- Assume you raised, and are in a multiway pot. Flop is A-rag-rag, rainbow and everyone "checks to the raiser". You bet and only lose one or maybe two players.


sometimes consider checking the flop and raising a turn bet to force players to call two double bets to draw out on the river. of course most players will call one flop bet, you raised and made the pot big enough for them to do so correctly with many hands.


- Turn is not scary...it's checked to you, you bet and are checkraised by one of the limpers. Call or 3-bet?


often muck in a loose passive game, consider calling if you think either hitting your kicker or the board pairing low will make your hand good.


- River does not bring in any draws, and does not pair your kicker...the checkraiser bets. Call or fold?


did the board pair low? maybe you got check raised by 7's and 6's. probably call. did you factor in calling the river bet unimproved in your effective odds when you call the raise on the turn?

I raise in the cutoff or on the button after multiple limpers with all big suited cards. This includes AKs, AQs, AJs, ATs, KJs, KQs, KTs, QJ, QTs, and JTs. Raising with AQs and AJs is a MUST.


With AQo, I will usually limp if there are many limpers ahead of me.


As for your hands, I usually won't fold top pair/strong kicker in big pots.


In this game, you should get all your money back and more by limping in early position with suited connectors such as 76s since the pot is unlikely to be raised pre-flop and you will get multi-way action.

im raising my suited cards preflop...


1 thing about these tables, when they bet, they usually have something. unless i have a great hand, id just call it down. or id start waiting to the turn to raise them, hoping for a free showdown. it kindof reverses the tables on em...


just an idea


b

Be happy when other players are limping with hands like AKo. You want them to allow you to see the flop cheaply. If they let you in without a raise and you beat their great starting hand with a nice flop for your T8s then that's great.

In this game, you should get all your money back and more by limping in early position with suited connectors such as 76s since the pot is unlikely to be raised pre-flop and you will get multi-way action.


Heh, that's what _I_ thought...but then the draw doesn't get there! /images/frown.gif


Actually, the game was good enough where, even though I think I was playing a little too tight, I ended up +260 for the 11 or so hours of 4-8, although most of that was made in the first 6 hrs, as the last 5 hrs I broke even. Oh well...

As for your river question, I would rarely, rarely lay down for one bet on the river. If there is a time to lay down, it would be the turn. This is a very large pot, and if you call a checkraise on the turn you better go all the way, especially if no draws hit.


Fallon

"Anywhere from 2-5 limpers in front of you; you are in late position (cutoff or button); you hold AQo, AQs, or AJs...call or raise?"


It makes a HUGE difference if there are 2 or 5 limpers!


If there are 2 limpers, I´d raise with all these hands. If there are 5 limpers, I just might raise with AQs.


Why?


If there´s lot´s of money in the pot, calling on the flop with any pair and gutshots becomes correct. Therefore you can raise if there´s just two, but you should call if there´s five limpers to you, because if you make your big pair in any of those two situations, your opponents´ calls with worse hands will only be marginal at best. Also, you are more likely to get a raise in on flop if you hit your hand but didn´t raise preflop.

you also gain a lot preflop by raising with AQs and AJs, and there is a 7.5-to-1 chance that you will make a flush or four-flush, so raising certainly is a good play even if 5 players have limped, but it entirely depends on what you prefer: 1) Gain EV preflop and have a harder time postflop or 2) lose EV preflop by calling but gaining EV post-flop if your opponents call with worse cards that should now be folded.

"Anywhere from 2-5 limpers in front of you; you are in late position (cutoff or button); you hold AQo, AQs, or AJs...call or raise?"


5 Limpers, and under the assumption that you flop top-pair:


If you raise preflop, you gain of course money, but make it correct for your opponents to call with just about any worse hand (gut shot needs better than 11-to-1, and he´s got that simply in pot odds, not to speak of his implied odds).


If you call preflop, you lose money, but gain it back postflop when your opponents call with worse pairs and gutshots. Also, you don´t give your hand away, and you will also have a better chance to raise on the flop.


Regarding AQo: there are already many players in the pot who will call another bet, but AQo doesn´t like many players. Because of that it has lost value, so calling is better than raising, and calling will also make things easier postflop as players are now less likely to call.


Regarding AQs and AJs: There is a 7.5-to-1 chance that you flop the nut flush or four-flush. That, in addition to flopping big pairs, makes raising the better play.

you also gain a lot preflop by raising with AQs and AJs, and there is a 7.5-to-1 chance that you will make a flush or four-flush, so raising certainly is a good play even if 5 players have limped


Failing to raise with AQs and AJs with 5 limpers ahead of you is just throwing away money.


Go to this thread in Mid-stakes.


Is this a raise, because I wish I had (views: 142)

bruce c -- Wednesday, 17 April 2002, at 4:16 p.m.


Late in the thread, I re-posted a quiz by David Skalnsky. He gives his thoughts on why raising with big suited Aces is a MUST in multi-way pots.