Bellagio 4-8 7a: Set over Set - Comments?

OK, my third of three hands I'll post from this past Friday at the Bellagio. Probably my 8th time at a card room, my first time playing in Vegas. I'm very new at this, so ALL comments are very appreciated.


It's early in the morning now. Have been playing for over 12 hours now with a couple of hours break in the middle. The table is now young locals, old locals, and two tourists. I'm one of them, and as soon as the other one is done, I know it's time for me to leave! At this point, I'm up about $150 from a $100 start.


I get 10-10 on button. 4 players call. I raise. Blinds call. 2 others stay. 5 players.


Flop: 10d 4h 6h


EP Bet. 2 Call. MP Raise. I call. 2 call. 4 players.


Turn: 2d [10d 4h 6h]


MP bets. I raise. EP calls. MP calls.


River: Js [2d 10d 4h 6h]


EP bets. MP calls. I raise. EP Folds. MP Re-raises. I call, thinking he has JJ now.


Results


I was right. He turns over JJ. I show my hand and he says "Ouch - flopped set. I put you on two pair. That was a bad beat."


The other tourist lost his stack 30 minutes later. I was enjoying the challenging play at this table so much that I stayed for another two hours, enough time to give back the $150 I had won in my previous ten hours. I left at around 9a with what I started the day with, which I was happy with given the rake, competition, and experience I gained. Now, I'm raising my standards, though!

>I get 10-10 on button. 4 players call. I raise. >Blinds call. 2 others stay. 5 players.


>Flop: 10d 4h 6h


>EP Bet. 2 Call. MP Raise. I call. 2 call. 4 >players.


Whoa! I don't get it. You've got to reraise here--for a couple of reasons.


First of all, with five players in you could very easily be looking at a heart draw. Got to charge him as much as possible! Reraise.


Second of all, what are you really afraid of, here, besides the hearts? An overpair. And (granted, it's easy for me to say this, since I know what happens) an overpair of jacks or queens has got to raise to get out singleton Aces and Kings.


>Turn: 2d [10d 4h 6h]


>MP bets. I raise. EP calls. MP calls.


>River: Js [2d 10d 4h 6h]


>EP bets. MP calls. I raise. EP Folds. MP Re-raises. I call, thinking he has JJ now.


It's a bad beat--I don't know if you could have avoided it by reraising on the flop, but I think you should have, anyway, to charge the hearts draw as much as possible. The added bonus is that you might get the jacks to drop--if he thinks you've got a bigger pocket pair, which, given your preflop raise is reasonable, he'd be wise to drop.)


Take with big grain of salt. I make lots of mistakes.

i think ya played it fine, and ya charged the flush draw quite a bit actually...


the start stop on the flop and raising the turn was good. if you cap the flop, you may not get the additional sb on the turn, because he may not bet into you.


i alter this play from capping the flop to waiting for the turn. the draws are coming anyway, and charging on the turn actually makes em pay 1 sb more at times. *if you know someone will bet the turn so you can raise*


tough beat...but it happens...


b

I'm sure someone else has pointed it out, but your set of 10's really needs to be played fast on the flop, especially with that many players and a possible flush draw out there. I would have reraised the flop for sure, if only to punish the flush drawers (reraise there wouldn't have dropped the JJ in any event though, so it wasn't a critical error). In any event, the guy hit his 2 outer on the river and you lost, oh well. Next hand...

Whoa! I don't get it. You've got to reraise here--for a couple of reasons.


First of all, with five players in you could very easily be looking at a heart draw. Got to charge him as much as possible! Reraise.


Actually, I think SFFish stumbled into the best strategy- Just calling the flop when someone else shows strength with the intent of raising the turn is strong.


You've got the right idea. You absolutely must charge the flush draws to make their hand. However, what's the best way to do it? No heart draw is going to fold his hand no matter how many bets he has to call. Therefore, you can get the most out of them if you charge them two bets on the turn.


Think of it this way. You're trying to make the flush draw play his hand incorrectly. Which is the bigger mistake for the flush draw to make:


1) Calling 1.5 big bets (3 small bets) on the flop with a ~2:1 chance of making his flush?


or


2) Calling 2 big bets on the turn with a ~4:1 chance of making his flush?


Just some things to consider. It's not "Pick on Ronaldo" day for me. /images/smile.gif

There is absolutely nothing that you could have done to get the pocket JJ's out of their. With a flop, turn, and river like that. He is not going anywhere.


Enrique

As a holdem novice, I would just like to make one comment. The other guys have covered everything except my point. I would have reraised on the flop to get more money in the pot and maybe discourage draws to straight and flush. If MP had not raised, I would probably have waited til the turn to do my raising. I think I read somewhere that if you slowplay the flop with the intention of check/raising the turn and someone else raises that you might as well jump in and raise yourself.


I would have read MP for an overpair also, but you have the best of it so make em pay.


JMHO. Remember that I am just a little more than a break-even player online.


Don

Who cares about an overpair on the flop. YOU'VE GOT THE NUTS!! But, you could be caught. So, IMHO, you have got to cap the flop. Otherwise, you did good.


PS. I don't consider this a bad beat. A bad beat would have been some maroon staying with 35o and hitting his straight on the turn .....

Paul,


Someone else mentioned worrying about an overpair on the flop. That wasn't what kept me from raising, though. The flop was bet and raised before it got to me. 3 players were after me. I thought if I called I would have 4 opponents for the turn (my guess: 2 heart draws, 1 overpair, and one top pair). I thought I'd lose two of the players if I 3-bet it but I thought they'd all call the one extra bet. Turns out 2 of the 3 called the extra bet.


Of my 3 opponents on the turn, 1 folded to a bet, but the other 2 called my raise, so up to that point, I think it was at least a close call, though I can definitely see the logic on playing faster on the flop.


Thanks for your thoughts!

Ronaldo wrote:

>>Whoa! I don't get it. You've got to reraise

>>here--for a couple of reasons.


>>First of all, with five players in you could

>>very easily be looking at a heart draw. Got to

>>charge him as much as possible! Reraise.


Dynasty wrote:


>Actually, I think SFFish stumbled into the best

>strategy- Just calling the flop when someone

>else shows strength with the intent of raising

>the turn is strong.


>You've got the right idea. You absolutely must

>charge the flush draws to make their hand.

>However, what's the best way to do it? No heart

>draw is going to fold his hand no matter how

>many bets he has to call. Therefore, you can get

>the most out of them if you charge them two bets

>on the turn.


>Think of it this way. You're trying to make the

>flush draw play his hand incorrectly. Which is

>the bigger mistake for the flush draw to make:


>1) Calling 1.5 big bets (3 small bets) on the

>flop with a ~2:1 chance of making his flush?


>or


>2) Calling 2 big bets on the turn with a ~4:1

>chance of making his flush?


>Just some things to consider. It's not "Pick on

>Ronaldo" day for me.


It's not "pick on Dynasty" day either. But I favor max bets on the flop. If the heart draw makes it on the turn, you may get the option to just check through as someone with a flush will try to checkraise you. Normally, I'd bet the set on the turn into a possible completed flush, but if you think there's a greater than normal possibility that the flush is there then you can just check.


Also, if you go max bets on the flop, someone may mistake *you* for a flush draw. If the flush misses, they may stop and go and bet into you again and you can raise again.

SFFish,


Sometimes you can over-think at the poker table. I know I'm often guilty of doing just that. In this case, you have to protect your hand. Bet the $#%^%$ out of it !!


As you stated you're new, you may not have heard one of the more oft-quoted poker cliches: "If you flop a set, lose the hand, and don't lose a lot of chips, you've missed played the hand."


Good luck.