About how much to raise the turn with a scary board...... example hand

[Gomez22]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($201.50)
UTG ($30.85)
UTG+1 ($49.50)
UTG+2 ($24.25)
MP1 ($39)
MP2 ($54.50)
MP3 ($58.20)
CO ($59.65)
Button ($23.75)
Gomez22 ($57.65)

Preflop: Gomez22 is SB with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.50, Button folds, Gomez22 completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Gomez22 checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets $0.5</font>, CO calls $0.50, Gomez22 calls $0.50, BB calls $0.50.

Turn: ($4) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Gomez22 checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets $1.75</font>, <font color="CC3333">Gomez22 raises to $7</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $12.75
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: $7.50, won by Gomez22.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: $5.25, overbet by Gomez22.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Gomez22 wins $12.75. </font>

Yeah... I know I gave a free card to any naked heart out there, but that's not the point right now. My question regarding this is whether or not with the turn is in question, should I raise just enough so that flush draws aren't getting proper odds to call. or should I pop it like I did here? If I raise to something like $5 in this example, he doesn't have quite the odds to chase, but might still call. Thoughts about this? I know I'm taking a chance in this situation, and the prudent play might have been to check-raise the flop, but I can't help but wondering.....

[unreal_ugn]

Raise it up on the flop and hope he doesn't come over the top with the flopped flush. Make sure anyone with a heart is going to be paying dearly for the turn.

[bunky9590]

No way I raise the flop here. great you flopped the straight on a monotone board. I want to keep the pot smallish on the flop. I want to show the hand down and not get crazy.

The turn raise however looks like a slowplayed monster which triggered the fold which was a good play. There a lot of player who will gamble on the flop at a 2:1 dog and will be nearly right to do so, but all of a sudden on the turn when they are a 4:1 dog the urge to gamble becomes a lot less.

Obviously on the turn if they re-raise you can fold. If they call I check behind on the river becuase if they missed the draw its not likely they'll call anyway, and if they slowplayed the turn and smoothcalled they will likely checkraise the river. You may also scare a smaller flush into checking the river with the raise.

[MrFroggyX]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise it up on the flop and hope he doesn't come over the top with the flopped flush. Make sure anyone with a heart is going to be paying dearly for the turn.



[/ QUOTE ]
I like it. I would have done that.

[ QUOTE ]
No way I raise the flop here. great you flopped the straight on a monotone board. I want to keep the pot smallish on the flop. I want to show the hand down and not get crazy.

The turn raise however looks like a slowplayed monster which triggered the fold which was a good play. There a lot of player who will gamble on the flop at a 2:1 dog and will be nearly right to do so, but all of a sudden on the turn when they are a 4:1 dog the urge to gamble becomes a lot less.

Obviously on the turn if they re-raise you can fold. If they call I check behind on the river becuase if they missed the draw its not likely they'll call anyway, and if they slowplayed the turn and smoothcalled they will likely checkraise the river. You may also scare a smaller flush into checking the river with the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree!

It’s very likely that Gomez have the best hand at the moment. Then he should make the flush draws pay as much as possible. He should not give any free cards..!
And also if he bets out on the flop.. If someone is coming over the top, he can fold without losing any more money.

Now he has no clue if someone flopped a flush, perhaps even the nut flush and is slow playing to get as much money in the pot as possible. If that is the case then Gomez will get burned when he bets out on the turn. That is why I think he clearly should bet out on the flop.
And to your statement: "There a lot of player who will gamble on the flop at a 2:1 dog and will be nearly right to do so, but all of a sudden on the turn when they are a 4:1 dog the urge to gamble becomes a lot less."
Great! Let them gamble! You will win money that way!! Sure you will lose sometimes and win sometimes.. But in the long run you will make money!! I would be very happy to play that hand all day long if I know what we both have.. e.g I got a straight and he has a flush draw.

And back to Gomez question: "should I raise just enough so that flush draws aren't getting proper odds to call. Or should I pop it like I did here"

Well I don't now because I wouldn’t have been in that situation in the first place. But if you are going to raise then your bet was perfect. If he comes over the top. Fold. If he calls.. Well then I don't know.. If the river were a blank I would probably fold if he bets big and check if he checks. That is why you have to bet on the flop..:
1. To charge the draws.
2. To see where you are.

[Paul2432]

And also if he bets out on the flop.. If someone is coming over the top, he can fold without losing any more money.

Great! Let them gamble! You will win money that way!! Sure you will lose sometimes and win sometimes.. But in the long run you will make money!!

Do you see the contradiction here? When your opponent decides to gamble with the flush draw he will do it by re-raising all-in. How are you going to win if you fold the best hand?

Paul

[MrFroggyX]

Yes off course.
But you took the things out of sentence.. The first one "And also if he bets out on the flop.. If someone is coming over the top, he can fold without losing any more money." was what I should do in real life. But the second "Great! Let them gamble! You will win money that way!! Sure you will lose sometimes and win sometimes.. But in the long run you will make money!!" was a more theoretical way of seeing the thing.. e.g. I did know that he had a flush draw and that I had a straight. (it's how you should have played if you could see each other person's hole cards)

The last one was more of an answer to brunky's advice.

Do you understand now?

[MrFroggyX]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you see the contradiction here? When your opponent decides to gamble with the flush draw he will do it by re-raising all-in. How are you going to win if you fold the best hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes if he choose to gamble with the flush draw I will fold the best hand.. But i still think it's better to bet out on the flop then on the turn.

[Gomez22]

I agree and disagree here...... First, I can agree with popping the flop a little, but even a small raise there will likely fold everyone, except a naked ace or king. SO I minimize my winnings by doing this.

I tend NOT to slowplay much. Usually when I do, I get into scary situations, but in this case, I figured if a blank hits the turn, and a pot-sized bet comes out in front of me, a raise is going to do 2 things:

1. Fold any hand NOT having a flush. PERIOD.

2. Fold any SMALL flush.

A small flush may NOT fold the flop, but will usually fold the turn when shown alot of aggression. My feeling in this hand was that if I were popped back on the turn, I'd let the hand go, if called, check-through the river, and if they fold, I just picked up an extra $2.50(or whatever it was). Personally, I liked my play here somewhat, and I know I won't do this more than 1 in 10 times in the given situation, but I was mainly concerned with bets regarding hands that you think are on draws.

I always like to bet pot when I feel I'm in the lead, but when charging draws, sometimes I wonder (with 1 card to come, mind you!) if you shouldn't dangle a carrot in front of their noses. Not actually give them odds, but maybe make it kinda close. Instead of giving them 4-1 to call the turn, maybe give them something like 2-1 or 2.5-1.......

Maybe I'm just getting greedy!!!

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

'Mez

[1800GAMBLER]

A small flush wont fold, never. You're trapping yourself, missing value and giving the pot away by slowplaying. Raise the flop. Pot sized.

[MrFroggyX]

The First Rule of Slowplay is You Do Not Slowplay Unless You Have a Monster Hand.
The Second Rule of Slowplay Is You Do Not Slowplay Unless You Have a Monster Hand.














<font color="white"> Understand??</font>

[CrisBrown]

Hi Gomez,

[ QUOTE ]
2. Fold any SMALL flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not going to happen often enough to even consider. If someone is going to see a flop with 32s, then fold if a flush hits ... why are they in the pot to begin with? Were they hoping for a 3-3-2 flop? No. They were hoping for a flush, or a wheel straight. Having hit the flush, they're not laying that hand down.

Cris