what is right %'age flop for tight? Aggressive?

Not sure if this is the right board -- but I'd like to ask these questions based on a 1/2 game. Now that PP and Pokerstars both have stats, this is an easier computation for me.


1) What do you consider to be a tight player in a typicial LL 1/2 game where the game is not too tight or extremely loose. Less than 25% of flops seen? Greater or smaller?


2) What do you consider to be tight in a tight game. 20%?


3) What do you consider to be tight in a loose passive game. 30%? In this type of game the %age goes up not because my hand selection, but because I will call more 1/2 bets in the SB.


Now what would you think is agressive?


1) If your bet/raise/re-raise is slightly (2-3%) greater than your call %'age. Or should it be greater?


2) What would an agressive player yield on re-raise percentage? Greater than 5%?


Thoughts?

Don't put too much stock in those stats - the only stat that matters in poker, is the only one that they don't show, which is how many BB/hour you are earning.


The reason those stats don't really matter is because a good hold'em player will be adjusting to a table, he won't be playing exactly the same way every time. All of that aside, your stat will be very difference depending on what cards you get dealt. If you get dealt big pairs all night long, your stats will be different than if you're sneaking in late with connectors on a frequent basis.


Get it?

Yes, I understand. Adjusting to game conditions is the best part of my game. That's why I have a few categories. I'm just trying to figure out what others think is "tight" and "aggressive" in some specific situations. And, I'm assuming these are over a few thousand hands. So, the spikes should flatten out.


BTW, I don't feel the total BB win/hr to be exact either.


I play exclusively online. So the number of games per hour is much higher than B&M. I know you have more expenses in B&M, but I think these should not factor into rating you play. They should just factor into your calculation of whether or not you want to make the trip.


Also, the number of games per hour varies greately depending on how many "zzzz" players there are on the table. So, again the per/hour figure will get skewed.


I feel a much more accurate assessment is BB / Games played. However, I think this goes against the thinking of the best poker minds. And it will likely be a fraction so not many people will like to say I'm a .15 BB / game winner - lol. So, I may be out on my own here!

Hey magithighs, congrats on your play in the HUT.


I am also curious about what percentages might be "right".


I am beating the LL paradise games regularily but getting beat at 5-10. I have about 3,000 hands played with the stats now and I'm seeing around 33% of the hands. I am about 3% higher on bet/raise/re-raise, 18% - 15%.


Based on the fact that I am winning at the 1-2, 2-4 and 3-6 tables, I think that these numbers are good. I know I'm playing more hands than I should, but when I hit I'm getting paid. At the higher limits, my good hands are not getting paid off and I'm not adjusting properly to play tighter. I suspect I should be closer to 25%.


Curious to hear what others think.

I got pokerstat a few weeks back and have about 4500 hands, 95% on 1/2 with some 2/4 and .5/1. I'm at 18% voluntarily put money in preflop but I tend to be pretty tight about big blind defence and very tight about small blind completion. I'm the tightest player in my database and most of the other winning players with 200+ hands seen are between 20-25%. In case you're curious I'm at a massive $.07 won per hand.. heh. "keep grinding out that rent money, noble work you're doing".


and wasn't that the suckiest 1/2 game last night, something like 5 2+2ers at the table.

Last night's game -- way to much hard work and required too much patience. I should know better and find easier games -- not that hard to find -- lol.

I was really hoping to play Mr. P heads up. I've gone against him on five handed and done alright. But we were just taking money from the others and not off each other. Would have been nice to see if I could have competed against him.


I'll post my "stats" separately to respond to you and coz.

You need to loosen up coz. I was up $50 on that table and $150 on the other 1-2 table.


Seriously, 18% seems way to tight for those games, but probably right for games where 20% see the flop.

I keep seeing this question posted so I'll finally drag out Poker Essays Volume II by Mason Malmuth and type out an excerpt. This is from the essay Playing 15 Percent on page 97.


Most good hold'em players play about 15 percent of the hands that they are dealt. Some play a little more and some play a little less. In addition, the amount they play will vary a small amount depending on the type of game they are in and who they are against.


The essay continues in detail and, of course, discusses that you will play far fewer hands in early position and for raises while you play many more hands in late position for the bring-in.


Mason's three Poker Essays books are loaded with good information. I highly recconmend all three of them.


If you're playing 20-25% of your hands over an extended periiod of time, I suspect you need to improve your starting hand selection.

Do you play as IByte?


Are you in Toronto too then?

I'm currently seeing 28% the flop. Sounds like I'm at the same level as Coz (18% voluntary and add in 10% for the BB). Still much lower than davidross. I think we all like the games where there's multiple chasers paying for the ride. So, it's interesting to get your perspective.


I find I need to be a little tighter than the table to be successful. So, if the table has only 25% of the players seeing the flop I've got to get mine down to 22-20% to get some good wins. Probably because I'm not that imaginative of a player just yet.


Haven't figured out my win rate per hand exactly, but I venture to guess it's a whopping few cents. Mostly because I just took up the game a year ago and I'm trying to make up for lost ground at the begining. I wish I could pay for my drinking, not my rent! Read into that what you may - lol. Win rate is on an upward trend which I think is good.


My re-raise is hovering around 1-2% which I think is quite low. But then again, I stay way from hyper-aggressive games so this may just be indicative of the game I prefer.


BTW David, I had an earlier post asking why I got killed at 2/4. I attributed this to being in a bad frame of mind, and getting way out of my comfort zone and changing my game. And, it was much harder for me to "categorize" the players and spot the fish. May be what's happening to you at 5/10. Just a thought.

Coz is approximately 25-28% if you are using PP stats. Pokerstats is "voluntarily" put money in the pot and doesn't count the BB when the pot is not raised. I find I get to play about 70% of my BB at these limits.

Paradise just counts all the flops you see. So it counts the hand you get in the BB which is unraised.


I suspect, without reading these of course, that Mason's advice is based on deciding to voluntarily put money into the pot. Is this assumption correct?


If so, I would pull back my 28% to about 20%. Still a bit high based on your comments. Which is what i was looking for. Sounds like I need to dig up these essays.

What's my giveaway?

15% seems unbelievably tight for the low limit games we play. When you can get 4 or 5 callers on every hand and raises only with category 1 hands, I think your missing a lot of opportunities if you play that tight. I'm sure you're right at the higher limits though.

One of the best reasons hand selection is so important IMO is this. Say say you are playing 25 percent and running good in a session. Then you get caught up in a couple of hands where you may lose 10-15 BB on each hand. Now you went from winner to loser in 2 hands and your emotional state is shocked.


We end up telling ourselves something like, "that's why I'm not supposed to play that hand in the first place (be it position or what may looked as though to be proper pot odds)".


We've all done it.


KC50

Something IByte asked coz last night made me wonder if that was you. I think we were on the same 2 tables for a while last night.


Do you ever go to Rama or Blue Heron to play live? I've never been but would like to go some time.

Most good hold'em players play about 15 percent of the hands that they are dealt.


This is the first sentence in the essay. The essay makes no distiction between blind hands and others.

In a 9-handed game just playing the big blind will get you 11% on it's own. In most of these games I think you're playing the BB 80% of the time. Wow that is tight. I don't doubt what you are saying, but I can't imagine playing that few hands.

I've played quite a bit of low-limit Hold'em here in Vegas. 15%, or 3 hands for every two orbits, when 4-5 players are seeing the flop feels right to me.


BTW, the players in the 15-30 Bellagio game seem equally as poor pre-flop as their 4-8 counterparts. They still limp UTG with KJo and cold-call raises with QTo. However, they are more aggressive and play better post-flop.

I'm going to post a question in the Books/Software forum for Mason about whether the 15% includes blind hands. This should help clarify the issue.


However, this may be a reason for the increased % of hand player's play. Many players call raises in their blinds when they shouldn't. Defending your blind from a late position "steal" raise with JTo or other marginal offsuit hands is common but usually a mistake. Also, if there is little pre-flop raising, the # of blind hands you play will obviously go up.


I'll go post the question now.

If you're interested I have you at:


Voluntarily put money in preflop: 26.73% (139/520)


In 520 hands seen obviously. Toss me an email at joeeq23@hotmail.com if you'd like the rest of them. You're beating me by a bit at average BB won per hand /images/frown.gif

Figured I might have given myself away - can't remember the comment but thought you might figure it out. Good to see there are some observant players.


I liked the second table I got on with you much better. Funny how the instructors are the best to have on the table.


Never been to Rama or Herron. A trip for me is not likely in the cards in the next little while. Too much going on -- much easier for me to sneak onto an online table.


However, I'd love to get out to a live game. If I can, I'll let you know.

I know only one other at the table because he said he posted here. It wasnt too difficult to figure out the others :=). Tough doggone table! You guys relieved me of the $70 that I had won earlier before you pros got there...lol


I went to another online casino and won $40; but I wont say where because you will be going there to get my easy money :=)


Played a $10 tourney at Paradise a few minutes ago and won it.


Thanks guys for your great posts. They are very enlightening.


Don

Dealt to vehn_ [ 9h ]

gazdaq : Fold

vehn_ : Fold

jwj_57 : Call ($1.00)

LoneBrownPun : Fold

davidross : Call ($1.00)

davidross bet $5.00, collected $15.25, net +$10.25 [ 7c 6s ] (pair)


Dealt to vehn_ [ 5d ]

veetee : Call ($1.00)

haize : Fold

davidross : Call ($1.00)

davidross bet $6.00, collected $18.25, net +$12.25 [ Th Qs ] (straight)


!!!!!


Just joking around. Some....


76o 2nd in??????? /images/wink.gif

At the begining there were so many leaks it was hard for me to spot this one. But as time wore on and I got a little better, boy did I ever notice this!!!


I was trying to illustrate this point on another post on the merits of playing J8s in late position. So very often when I make my hand with something like J8s, someone beats me on the turn or river. Problem is with these marginal hands that you can't scare the draws out of the pot. I find I valiantly try with my two pair or made str8t on the flop. Innevitably I get killed and poof my profit for the session is gone.


So for the most part I'm learning to stay away from the cheese. Now if I could always stay away from the cheese -- there would be an improvement!

Heh I agree but its rare that you get so many "low limit all stars" in one game.


Alright.... I realize that that term is pretty much an oxymoron but oh well.


I got some pretty cold cards and uh made a few "marginal" moves before I decided I had enough. Was up a bit at least.


Dealt to vehn_ [ 4s ]

Dealt to vehn_ [ 4d ]

gazdaq : Call ($1.00)

vehn_ : Raise ($2.00)


*cough*

It's closer to 18 or 20% in a passive game. They're not raising you off of your BB as often.

I believe the 15% is only counted toward voluntary entry in the pot. So a free play in the BB would not count. Loosening up in a loose-passive game does not mean 25%. It means that when you have more information from late position, you can start to play hands like suited connecters,small pairs and Ax suited as they play well multiway. That doesn't mean that if 5 players cap the betting, and you're on the Button with J-9 suited you should call.

The tighter games mean less hands will be of value, because you won't have enough players in.

You can play a LITTLE looser in passive games, and tighter in aggressive games. Play more aggresively in tighter games, and play only strong hands in aggresive games.

The key is not to think in percentages, but in what hands play well for the situation at the time. Playing the right cards, in the right situation is how you will position yourself, preflop, to have the best advantage over the long run.

Over the course of a lifetime, every player will get the same cards in the same position. The winning players know what to do with them. The losing players don't.

Hmm it looks bad when you put it like that. I'm telling you though, on those tables I seem to get away with it, there is rarely a raise and if the flop misses I scatter.


But this is the root of my problems at higher limits, when people won't call me down later, and they raise me pre-flop and take away teh possibility of seeing the flop cheap.

Hey there Don,


well done about the toutney. You just got some bad cards last night. Keep on plugging.

"If you're playing 20-25% of your hands over an extended periiod of time, I suspect you need to improve your starting hand selection"


For many people it is even worse than this. The additional hands that they play are frequently called raises. These are hands that look pretty good, and in many spots are pretty good, but which trap them for much negative expectation.

You may be correct. Here's a short excerpt from HPFAP-21. (See pages 19 and 20.)


We also want to point out that loose and passive are not the same thing. If a game is loose, but still very aggressive, you should not be in many pots. On the other hand, you could play a fair

number of hands in a tight but passive game.


Put another way, passive/aggressive should have a major impact on the number of hands that you play, while loose/tight should impact the mix of hands that you play. There will be more discussion of this throughout the text."

"BTW, the players in the 15-30 Bellagio game seem equally as poor pre-flop as their 4-8 counterparts. They still limp UTG with KJo and cold-call raises with QTo. However, they are more aggressive and play better post-flop."


I share this opinion.

I've played HE poker about three months now at LL Paradise, with good success (particularly the past month or so after things started "clicking" for me after studying 2+2 books and this forum). Since Paradise started keeping stats that carry over from session to session, my flops seen percentage hovers between 19-21% and my combined bet/raise/re-raise numbers are at a ~1.6:1 to 2:1 ratio to the call numbers. I'm pretty comfortable with those figures, although it looks like the 20% flop number may be a bit high. I try to play in passive games, so I'm seeing a lot of BB and posts for "free."


I'm not posting this to brag or anything, especially because I don't even know whether those are good numbers. Does anyone have any comments, criticisms, etc.? Thanks in advance for your help.

Ok, now that I read your quote a few more times I think I have it.


When you say we shouldn't be playing more than 15% of dealt hands this includes the BB. but, posting the blind and seeing the flop is not playing a hand. Putting money in the pot after the flop is playing the hand.


So, if you post and do go any further it doesn't count towards the percentage you're quoting.


When I'm on my "A" game, I fold about 70% of my blinds. If I subtract 7% from 28%, I'm voluntarily putting money into the pot 21%. Sounds like I'm way too loose. LOL -- I thought 25% was loose.


I now understand why I can't play in a "tight" game. In a loose passive game, it covers up my mistake of playing too many flops. Since I don't have to pay a BB (most flops are un-raised) and there are many players, my wins usually more than make up for my loses. But if there's no leakage, then my session win rate will be much higher.


Let me know if my interpretation is correct.


P.S. The concepts you put forth in your advice through books and essays is abosolutely amazing. It's really funny how I would read these when I was starting out and think hmm that's interesting. Now with 600 hrs, some things (not all) are sinking in. Mostly because losing money is much more effective in burning pathways in my neurons than reading. Funny how that is. If your concepts could earn royalties...now that would be nice. Just wanted to say thanks!

This is just bad play plain and simple, no matter what the limit. If it's suited and the table is EXTREMELY passive you can play it OCCASIONALLY (and usually raise if your UTG raises are getting too much respect). 76o is never playable FOR PROFIT in early position.


Jeff