Was this a call?

[Ben]

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed)

Button ($40.25)
Hero ($26.95)
BB ($15)
UTG ($26.85)
UTG+1 ($18)
MP1 ($26.50)
MP2 ($11.10)
CO ($25.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets $1</font>, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, BB folds.

Anyone think this was a call?


Thanks,
Ben

[prairieboy]

It isn't a call.

It could be a fold. You've got a hand with potential, but nothing much yet, small pot, why stick your neck out?

It could be a raise. You've got a hand with potential, UTG may or may not have a decent hand, raise it up and see how proud he is of his hand.

[BigBiceps]

I think it is a call.

After his bet there are $3 in the pot. So you are getting 3-1 odds if you put $1 in. So you have to win only 25% of the time to make it worth it.

Lets assume he has AQ without the /images/graemlins/heart.gif

So then you have 2 9's, 3 10's, 9 hearts to be best after the turn. That is 14 outs, out of 45 cards based on our AQ assumption. 14/45 = 31% of being best on the turn.

When you add in the chance he gives you a free river card, the extra straight possibility cards (K, J, 8), and the implied odds to put more money in the pot if you become the best hand either by betting or check-raising the turn, I think this is an easy call.

[mullaney]

It's tough, because your opponent has position on you, but I agree that it's possible to draw to your card once. If it's heads up, you miss the turn and he bets something closer to the pot on the turn, I would fold.

[AJo Go All In]

i had to reread the post and the baffling responses over and over again to make sure that yes, you did in fact flop a pair and a flush draw and folded for a 1 dollar bet on the flop. and also that other people were recommending this move! am i in the twilight zone?

not only is it not a fold, it is a raise.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=256237
pokenum -h qs as - 9h th -- qh 9c 5h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9c Qh 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Qs 476 48.08 514 51.92 0 0.00 0.481
Th 9h 514 51.92 476 48.08 0 0.00 0.519

[Ben]

Nice post.

Looking at the twodimes output and considering all my outs I think yes, it is a call, and very possibly a raise.

Thanks for the input AJ.

-Ben

[Guy McSucker]

You can certainly call this bet. You can raise it too: you have flopped a very big hand here, which will make two pair or better over half the time. Nobody has shown any strength at all: no preflop raise, and only a half pot bet on the flop. Why on earth are you folding here?

If you had position this would be a hand you'd raise most of the time. Out of position it's more troublesome, because your odds drop off dramatically if you miss the turn, you won't be able to tell if this guy will call a big bet or not, and the last thing you want to do is check and face a big bet.

Out of position, it's hard to determine a decent raise amount. You don't want to get a big chunk of your stack committed and then miss the turn. If you're feeling frisky, move all-in! You will most likely win the pot uncontested. If he calls, you're often a favourite. If he has a set or Q9, back to the drawing board; but perhaps this gambling all-in raise will get you calls later.

Another possibility, given his weak betting, is just to call along and see what develops. Maybe the BB will fish in too. Maybe you'll get to the river cheaply. Maybe you'll realise he doesn't have much and bet him off the hand on the river even if you don't hit. Lots of possibilities here.

If you're going to fold on this flop, getting 3-1, when you have 14 outs to two pair or better, you should not have completed the SB. I would almost go so far as to say you should not even have posted the SB if you don't want to play on this flop. (Just teasing. Sort of.)

Guy.

[Ben]

Thanks for the post Guy.

I guess my reason for folding not really considering my outs. I generally play fairly tightly, and I looked at a non-nut flush draw and middle pair with cruddy kicker and dumped it.

Thinking about it now I think it's an easy call--I think I just played it too fast and didn't consider my outs.

Thanks to everyone for the input. It help a lot.

-Ben

[Ben]

I think part of my problem is having a limit background.

I look at non-nut draws and middle pairs as leaks almost...more tweaking shall be done.

[1800GAMBLER]

I'd imagine if you fold here you'd struggle to beat the game. It's not 'possibly' a raise either, it is a raise.

[Ben]

Playing draws is definite a weak-point of mine.

I'm reading through the post of yours on raising draws for value and doing my best to internalize it.

I appreciate the input.

[nicky g]

This was unhelpful so I've deleted it.

[nicky g]

Ok less unhelpful: agree with Jay and Guy and AJ. It is almost definitely a raise because heads up this is very powerful, but multiway less so (though still decent). You always have either the best draw or the best hand HU, whereas three way you could be against top pair and a better flush draw, so try to get HU. You can never be drawing to less than a bunch of outs heads up, even if you're losing. You're a small favourite against a bigger pair, which may not sound fantastic, but if you add in the EV from the times you play aggressively and your opponent flods a made hand, it adds up. You have to play this hand hard, until it looks like you're going to face resistance from more than one opponent and the money is deep, in which case bin it. I'd raise with this in limit too, by the way.

[prairieboy]

two dimes says:

If he's got Q /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif then it's a coin toss
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 9h 490 49.49 500 50.51 0 0.00 0.495
Js Qc 500 50.51 490 49.49 0 0.00 0.505

If he's got a 9 with a better kicker, it's slightly worse for you
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 9h 459 46.36 501 50.61 30 3.03 0.479
9s Kc 501 50.61 459 46.36 30 3.03 0.521

If he's got a better 9 with a heart:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 9h 412 41.62 566 57.17 12 1.21 0.422
9d Ah 566 57.17 412 41.62 12 1.21 0.578

If he's got a set:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 9h 316 31.92 674 68.08 0 0.00 0.319
5s 5c 674 68.08 316 31.92 0 0.00 0.681

If he's got a straight draw:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 9h 736 74.34 242 24.44 12 1.21 0.749
Js Tc 242 24.44 736 74.34 12 1.21 0.251

If he's got a (better) flush draw:
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Th 9h 600 60.61 390 39.39 0 0.00 0.606
Ah 2h 390 39.39 600 60.61 0 0.00 0.394

Or in a nutshell, if you're ahead, you're well ahead, but if you're behind you're probably only slightly behind.

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]

I looked at a non-nut flush draw and middle pair with cruddy kicker and dumped it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course either of those holdings alone is questionable. Taken together, though, they make a big hand, especially heads up, even in limit.

The worry with a non-nut draw is of course that you get there andlose your whole stack to the nut draw. But as Nicky G said, if he has the nut flush draw, you are winning the pot right now! So you don't need to fear that so much.

Guy.

[Ben]

The more I think about this hand the more I wonder why the hell I folded. I was (probably stupidly) playing two tables and thought it was a marginal call at the time for previously-stated reasons.

I see now where my thinking wass off. I appreciate the guidance guys, I don't think I would have come up with any of these conclusions on my own. I'm now dedicating some time to reading on playing draws in NL (and plan on getting Cioffone's (sp?) book, as I clearly need the help)

-Ben