Raise-Bet-Reraise-Bet-Bet-Fold

[King Friday XIII]

It seems like 1/2 hands are posted in Micro and 2/4 and up are posted here in the Small Stakes, so here it goes.

The Place: PartyPoker
The Table: 2/4, 10-handed, loose/passive
The Hand: A /images/graemlins/club.gifA /images/graemlins/spade.gif
The Position: UTG+1
The Reads: MP1 is a loose fishie passive idiot. CO seems typical ABC straight-forward man.

UTG folds, I raise. MP1 cold-calls, MP2 cold-calls, CO cold-calls, others fold. 4 players see the flop.

Flop (8.5 SB's): 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, CO cold-calls. I reraise, all call. 4 players see the turn.

Turn (10 BB's): Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif[9 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif]

I bet, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River (13 BB's): T /images/graemlins/heart.gif[Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif]

I bet, MP1 calls, CO raises. I think about folding, but decide to use a disconnect all-in.

What do you think of how I played? I'm a newbie here so please don't yell at me too loudly. I have low self-esteem.

HAIL TO THE KING!

PS. I folded the river.

[Joe Tall]

Meow, chow, meow King Friday,

The disconnect move is aweful and you should get reported.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[King Friday XIII]

Dear Joe Tall,

Please read the whole original post before responding.

HAIL TO THE KING!

PS. You're probably not reading this far down right now.

[maurile]

It's painful to call a raise on the river with just one pair, especially on a coordinated board (QT9).

Is your opponent capable of bluff-raising a missed draw if he puts you on a big pair?

In this situation I would grudgingly call against even a non-tricky opponent, knowing that it is a mistake . . . which fits John Feeney's definition of tilt. It's one of the things I have to improve on to become a better poker player. (Another one is value-betting the river more. They kind of go hand-in-hand, though. One of the reasons I don't bet the river in these situations is that I know I'll make a bad call if raised. So I make one mistake to prevent myself from making another.)

[AviD]

Why did you mention the use of all-in disconnect?
I guess that was a joke, considering the PS?

What hands did you put the CO on? Figure him for a flopped set {9s, 7s, 2s, or rivers Ts}?

If he was ABC, why didn't he pop the turn when he had the field in for 1 call already. That makes me think he was still drawing on the straight or calling down with Ts, but if he was ABC, I doubt he'd hang in there with all that cold-calling with just Ts nor would he cold call 2 with 68s or J8s?

So I have to figure a flopped set slow played until the river, although he should have popped the turn. The only other hand I can see him cold calling the whole way with and raising the river is K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hate to see him turn over KK here, slowplayed incorrectly all the way until the end.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

After the bets and raises, there are 17BB in the pot. It only costs 1 BB to see it. It seems there is at least a 10% chance you have him beat. Call.

[maurile]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems there is at least a 10% chance you have him beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is somewhat player-dependent. I know many players who would never, not in a million years, raise the river in this situation without being able to beat one pair.

[schwza]

you gotta call... could be looking at AQ, KQ, KK. you're probably not going to win, but you can't give up on a huge pot for one bet with that hand.

[Homer]

You played it fine. Sucks when two outers get there.

[Homer]

Uhhh, Mr. ABC is not raising a bet and call on the river without being able to beat a pair of Aces. No way your hand is good 1/18 of the time.

EDIT: Note that if the order of the turn and river cards were reversed, calling would be a much better play.

[King Friday XIII]

Dear Milo,

I'm much less concerned with the gigantonormacism of the pot than I am with the fact that my opponent just raised me (the one who's been betting and raising and reraising at every given opportunity) and another caller (who saw me betting and raising and reraising at every opportunity and still is calling me on the river). The fact that he knows all this and still raises means he expects to be called, which means my one pair is NOT good once every 17 times.

HAIL TO THE KING!

[King Friday XIII]

Dear Homer,

Uhhh, Mr. ABC is not raising a bet and call on the river without being able to beat a pair of Aces. No way your hand is good 1/18 of the time.

My thoughts exactly. I've noticed from reading these boards for the past month that posters here just don't grasp the concept of pot odds based calls and protected pots. Just because I have an overpair and I'm getting 17:1 doesn't mean I call.

Note that if the order of the turn and river cards were reversed, calling would be a much better play.

Indeed. In. Deed.

HAIL TO THE KING!

[King Friday XIII]

Hey schwza,

you gotta call... could be looking at AQ, KQ, KK. you're probably not going to win, but you can't give up on a huge pot for one bet with that hand.

Yup, sure could be those. But how often will it be? Once every 5 times? Every 10? 17? Surely not.

HAIL TO THE KING!

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts exactly. I've noticed from reading these boards for the past month that posters here just don't grasp the concept of pot odds based calls and protected pots. Just because I have an overpair and I'm getting 17:1 doesn't mean I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

A sweeping statement. Actually, most posters here do, in fact, grasp the concepts of pot odds and protected pots quite well. However, the rule of thumb of "don't fold a big pot on the river for one bet" is a good one in absence of other information or specific reads, because for every river situation you're in like this one, you'll be faced with 9 others where the fact that you're beat is not so blatantly obvious. I agree your fold is fine here; however, I don't think you are giving the average SS 2+2 poster enough credit.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

If you are so sure, why did you post asking for advice? Admittedly, I rarely get a clear read on my opponents unless they are maniacs, mostly because I find poker boring unless I'm playing three tables and watching TV. So if you are that certain of your read, then fold.

Oh, and your self-esteem seems fine, so dial it back a notch. Otherwise you will be seen as covering for your poor self-esteem with aggression or sarcasm aimed at others.

Dr. BigBaitsim

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts exactly. I've noticed from reading these boards for the past month that posters here just don't grasp the concept of pot odds based calls and protected pots. Just because I have an overpair and I'm getting 17:1 doesn't mean I call.


[/ QUOTE ]

A sweeping statement. Actually, most posters here do, in fact, grasp the concepts of pot odds and protected pots quite well. However, the rule of thumb of "don't fold a big pot on the river for one bet" is a good one in absence of other information or specific reads, because for every river situation you're in like this one, you'll be faced with 9 others where the fact that you're beat is not so blatantly obvious. I agree your fold is fine here; however, I don't think you are giving the average SS 2+2 poster enough credit.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the absence of reads, which is how I usually play, I would call this. I know I should be reading my opponents more, but that would make poker too much of a chore, so I'll take a lower win rate and watch TV or fold laundry while playing. If I had to just concentrate on the poker, I'd get bored and stop playing.

[GuyOnTilt]

Oh, and your self-esteem seems fine, so dial it back a notch.

As cocky as His Majesty is, he is completely correct. You don't need a specific read to make this fold on the river; you need a specific read to NOT make this fold on the river.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

Actually, most posters here do, in fact, grasp the concepts of pot odds and protected pots quite well.

Perhaps. But they refuse to apply it to river situations such as this.

However, the rule of thumb of "don't fold a big pot on the river for one bet" is a good one in absence of other information or specific reads

I don't like that statement. It doesn't teach anybody anything about poker. What it does is give this blanket statement that encompasses almost all high pocket pair situations on the river, and many others. It gives posters here the "what" of poker without teaching them the "why" and "how", which is exactly why most SS'ers would incorrectly make this river call. Because so many here drill it into others' heads that "YOU DO NOT FOLD BIG HANDS IN BIG POTS" and so you end up making -EV plays on the river. Sure you're making +EV plays using the same statement more than you're making -EV ones, but if you made the effort to learn to distinguish how and when to apply that blanket statement and how and when not to then you'd ONLY be making +EV plays. In my opinion, that "rule of thumb" is just a cop out so that you get to see a showdown, because that's more fun than making a correct fold with a strong hand. It also is a cop out from paying closer attention to your tables and getting opponent reads and going beyond ABC poker.

The rule will get you by in small stakes online, but you will be making -EV plays on the river and in turn lowering your winrate, and you'll find it harder to move up to mid-limits and beat them. But if that sacrifice is worth being able to have the excitement and satisfaction of seeing at showdown at EV's expense, then I guess that's your perogative.

That's my oh-two.

GoT

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I stand (or sit) corrected.