Confessions of a loser.

I've been playing poker at Foxwood's the last couple months. I've read the books, and practiced on the Turbo Holdem software. I went into the casino thinking I was going to mop up the low limit tables -- send me the tourist!


I started at $2-$4 and lost $100. There was just too many people playing nearly every hand. When I was in a hand there was usually 10 people playing and my hands just wouldn't hold up. However, the next week I played and won $200 when my hands did hold up and the game wasn't quite as loose. So I decided to play $4-$8 where they didn't play quite as loose as the $2-$4 table. I was sure I could mop up there!


The $4-$8 table was still pretty loose but not as loose as the $2-$4. I'd say 5-7 people would see the flop on average. I'm thinking "All right, this is perfect. It won't take me long to fleece these sheep." I dropped a rack.


I just couldn't catch a hand and when I did I was out of position and had to throw it away. I figure I just ran into a spot of bad luck. I played tight-aggressive, exactly like the books recommend, so my losing could only be attributed to bad luck (right?). The next week wasn't quite so bad. I won $20 and it only took me 14 hours to do it.


Now I come to a realization. I'm not going to be the big winner at the table playing my tight-aggressive game. The big winner at the table will most likely be one of the guys playing too loose, but who happens to get lucky. The guys playing too loose will pass their money back and forth with each other, but I will only be playing the proper starting hands in the proper position, and I will grind out my 1 BB per hour. Eureaka! I got it now so send in the tourist!


The next week I dropped another rack. This is really getting frustrating. Is it bad luck? I am absolutely positive that I am only playing the tight-aggresive game recommended in the books (really, no lie). Maybe when I raise with my AQ or AJ and don't hit the flop I should just let go immediately. Maybe that is what I am doing wrong. Maybe I'm not reading hands as well as I should, I've paid off a lot of two pair and sets -- maybe I should have seen something. Maybe I just suck.


I'd probably go with the "I just suck" theory except that I did manage to win a tournament. This may not mean a whole lot, but I think it is an indication that I have some skill.


While I was giving away my money in the low limit ring games I did notice something. There was a couple young guys that would come in and play a real loose game, but an aggressive game, and they seemed to always be winning the money. I decided to try it.


I practiced this style of play on the Turbo Holdem software for a week, and I was killing 'em. So this weekend I went in and played this loose-aggressive style in a real game.


Basically, I played any suited cards that could also make a straight. I played any AXs, KXs, and QXs. I also played any two gapped offsuit straight. If I had two big cards, two suited connectors above an 8, or any Ace, or any suited King -- I raised. I was raising a lot and I was playing a lot. If I missed the plop I usually got out, but even then I would occasionally test the waters if I had a feeling the flop missed everyone else as well (assuming I had raised pre-flop). Now, I did take position into account so that I didn't play 52o UTG, but I did play A7s UTG for a raise.


I took me about an hour and a half to win a little over a rack.


Then things started to change. I personally transformed a loose-passive game into a tighter (but still loose) aggressive game. Now I wasn't the only one raising pre-flop. Now two or three other guys were doing it as well. I was now getting my 97o raised. I ended up giving back half the rack that I had won. So now I changed gears and started playing my tight-aggressive with the exception that I played a little looser than I normally would when I was in a late position. I won my rack back and a little more.


So, here is where I stand today. If I am lucky enough to be in a game that has 5-7 people on average seeing the pot and when a raise comes as a shock to everyone -- then I am playing loose-aggressive. I've only won once playing this way, but I'm sure it is the proper way to play. You have no idea what it feels like to literally take command of a table. When the table starts catching on and becomes more aggressive then I switch gears and start playing a tight-aggressive game (However, I'll switch gears a little sooner than I did yesterday).


Send me the tourist!

You are very confused. Playing well does not always mean you win. And winning does not mean you are playing well. You are confusing results with performance.


However, there was one statement in your post which was beautiful. It's too bad you're going to lose more money before you go back to that philosophy.


Now I come to a realization. I'm not going to be the big winner at the table playing my tight-aggressive game. The big winner at the table will most likely be one of the guys playing too loose, but who happens to get lucky. The guys playing too loose will pass their money back and forth with each other, but I will only be playing the proper starting hands in the proper position, and I will grind out my 1 BB per hour.


Perfect!

I happen to respect your opinion Dynasty, but I think you’re wrong here. Granted there is the possibility I am wrong and will learn my lesson the hard way, but I not only think you can play much looser in loose-passive games, but I think you HAVE to play looser.


Otherwise the good pre-flop hands you do play need to beat 5-7 people on average. In order for you to win, you must beat their unintentional collusion. Against any one player you are a favorite, but against the whole table you are not. You would think "so what, when I do win a hand it will make up for the lost hands." I don't think it does. The 5-7 people seeing the flop may play bad but they aren't idiots. Few will pay you off by taking a middle pair to the river. Occasionally your pair of Aces with a Queen kicker will win a showdown against an A9o but it's just as likely it will lose to two-pair by a guy holding 84s. With so many people seeing the flop two-pair happen a lot, as do straights you wouldn't expect to see, and runner-runner-flushes. Not only do good hands not hold up as often as they would in a tight game, but they can also cost you a fortune. Plus, in a tight game a good starting hand can win unimproved, but that virtually never happens in a loose game. If seven or more people see the flop one of them is going to catch something. Lastly, the pots you do win just aren't that big. Most of the money comes in pre-flop by people playing too loose. After the flop they drop out if they don't catch something, and when they do stay in they seem to be quite happy to check the betting around. Every now and then you will get a good sized pot, but you better hope it happens on that rare occasion that you catch a good pre-flop and a good flop.


By playing loose yourself you get the opportunity to see if you can catch one of these flops. How often have you thought "I know throwing away J8o was smart, but I would have flopped a straight if I'd played." Now you get to flop that straight by playing loose. The reason is that you are rarely punished for playing J8o pre-flop -- nobody raises.


You still have to play smart on the flop. You want straight draws, flush draws, sets, and two pairs. If you catch top pair with a crappy kicker be very cautious (fold A, K, and Q crappy kicker if anyone bets, but be willing to play the others). If you miss the flop or catch a three flush or gutshot then just check. With any luck it will get checked around and you'll catch a card on the next street. This happens occasionally, but it only happens in your memory when you fold that mediocre hand pre-flop.


Playing loose is suicide in a tight-aggressive game, but in a loose-passive game I’m sure it is the way to win the money.

You are right about loosening up in loose-passive games. Where you are off track is that you haven't mentioned position or odds. Suited connecters and one gappers play well with 5 or more players in, because you are getting the proper odds to play. Small and Med pairs play well with 5 or more players and a little aggresion. In order to get that information, you need to have late position. Your loose opponents seem to win because they accidently stumble onto the correct strategy some of the time. I've seen these same players go up 3 racks and then down 4 because they played way too loose.

Play your tight game in early position, and loosen up as you get closer to the button when you have enough info to decide if your hand plays well for the situation. IE Don't cold call 9-10 suited on the button for 3 bets with only 2 players. Do call 9-10 suited in late position with 5 limpers.

The key is to get aggressive when the flop hits you in order to knock out players that may outdraw you. You want the player in with A-weak kicker when you hold A-K, Reguardless of how often they out draw you. If you follow this logic and play well after the flop, you will find yourself winning these games with relative ease.

Your high pocket pairs and big slick are still great hands and need to be played aggressively. You may lose more often with them in this type of game, but when you win, you will win alot more than you lose.

I hope this helps you a bit. Read Hold em poker for advanced players and study the chapter on loose games.

You're taking your analysis much too far.


I suggest you read [b]The Psychology of Poker by Alan Schoonmaker[b]. It will give you excellent information on how to properly adjust your play for a loose-passive game.

"I happen to respect your opinion Dynasty, but I think you’re wrong here. Granted there is the possibility I am wrong and will learn my lesson the hard way, but I not only think you can play much looser in loose-passive games, but I think you HAVE to play looser."


1st off...


do you realy think this has never been tried by any of us here? your kind of right...to a degree. you can win playing a little looser than normal...youll still win playing tight, but your playing a little too loose here. J8os into a huge mutliway pot? if your gonna play multiway hands, try and be suited at least...


you dont HAVE to play looser to beat this game. you CAN play looser and still beat it. but your variance/swings will be bigger.


refer to cardplayer.com...dan negreaneu's column titled 'nutbar'. you have some good ideas, just need to shape em a little...


there is an idea as to just having to play tighter than the table. i think that was in jones' book...not sure. but your taking it a little too far...


"How often have you thought "I know throwing away J8o was smart, but I would have flopped a straight if I'd played." Now you get to flop that straight by playing loose"


2nd...


this is hindsight thinking here. woulda coulda shoulda. hindsights always 20/20. what about when ya fold K4os and the flop is 4 4 4? are ya gonna start playing that too?


"I've been playing poker at Foxwood's the last couple months. I've read the books, and practiced on the Turbo Holdem software. I went into the casino thinking I was going to mop up the low limit tables"


it takes a little more than a couple months to start spouting defintives about strategies. only to find out that the strategies themselves arent defintive.


you have some good starting ideas, but they sound rooted in a little desperation instead of sound logic. you see bad players winning, so if you cant beat em, join em..is kind of what it sounds like.


"The $4-$8 table was still pretty loose but not as loose as the $2-$4. I'd say 5-7 people would see the flop on average. I'm thinking "All right, this is perfect. It won't take me long to fleece these sheep." I dropped a rack."


you can do this on any table if your not hitting cards. it happens. you cant win every session no matter how bad the other players play. wait til the really bad streaks come, where ya cant win for weeks at a time? and they do happen...what then?


"Now I come to a realization. I'm not going to be the big winner at the table playing my tight-aggressive game. The big winner at the table will most likely be one of the guys playing too loose, but who happens to get lucky."


have you ever seen how many racks these guys go thru when their not 'lucky'? when the cards start coming your way, youll win. its a patience game... remember? what if you were playing for 4-5 hours and in 'hindsight', never folded a winner? somedays are like that.


"The guys playing too loose will pass their money back and forth with each other, but I will only be playing the proper starting hands in the proper position, and I will grind out my 1 BB per hour."


let them pass back and forth...the rake will come into play a little here on them. but when your rarely in, and you win, theyll have to beat on each other a little to compensate for you.


"I've only won once playing this way, but I'm sure it is the proper way to play."


based on 1 time? wow...hope your prepared for the losing swings also. its good that your able to switch gears. thats pretty key. and your realization about flop play.


last thing...


if you play this way often...you will learn the hard way. ive played these types of tables, and i really like the 6 to the flop passivity. but making hands like J8os a standard hand to 'limp' with in a mid position, is gonna cost ya alot down the road. you based this approach on watching bad players 'short term' results and hindsight thinking. not on sound theory and logic.


i'd be very careful if your in a pot with someone who knows how to play these tables well. they will be trapping and extracting alot of chips from you if you dont catch on to them. sure theyll play crap hands once in awhile...try to look like a roman theyll give a little in appearance...but in the end, the chips are going their way.


ive seen the looks on the faces of the guys whos 'system' failed them, and that glum look they have as they go in for their 3rd rack. now soo timid, they dont even want to raise because they havent hit a flop in hours...and when they do have the best of it, theyre afraid fo getting snapped on the end, thus they miss bets all over.


a least you have a tight aggressive game to fall back on, but your going too far to the other extreme in my opinion. sorry if this sounded a little harsh. it wasnt meant that way. i think you could play a lot better, sounder game than what your presenting. just tighten up a little.


but who knows...ya may make thousands...


just some thoughts...


b

I saw a new system in play this week, I will tell you what I saw. I am late middle with AA. UTG raises, called by early middle (em), I reraise, and EM caps it. Five see a flop of 238r. UTG bets, em raises, I raise, three see a 9 for 2389 on the turn. UTG checks, em bets, I'm really confused at this point and call for a 2 on the river - no flush possible. UTG checks, em bets, I call. Em shows K2o and takes down the pot with 222. UTG had JJ. Em said he was afraid we would all fold after the flop! The flop is 238r and I am going to fold holding AA? What was he doing in with K2o capping the betting preflop? I watched him until I figured out his system. Once each 18 -20 hands he played his hand to the river, leading the betting and raising if he had anything. The guy took three plus racks off the table. I had a losing night. Would I think of playing like that? Not even. I wonder what his results over a years time? Even though he must have a lot of fun some nights he can't be winning. There are lot's of ways to play, but only a few that consistantly make money and that wasn't one of them.


When those five or six or more to one hands hit when you are out of position it's a lot of fun, but when they miss, you think you have a vacuum under your chip pile. Slow down, be bored, make money over the long run. jmo

There is some really good information in this series of post and it really helps me after a brutal weekend of 4-8 in which i dropped $300 in 17 hours. I was running into a lot of things Daithi ran into.


Rather than analyze further, let me give two specific examples. There was a young lady in a game I played in yesterday. She was there when I got into the game at noon and there when I left at 3am today. She dropped $200 the first three hours I was there. She made at least two trips to the ATM machine for $200 more throughout the day. At 9pm last night, she pulled out $60 and gave it to the dealer and said "once this is gone, so am I." She had $300 at 3am and had four racks of mixed white and read at one point. I saw her win numerous pots calling with 7-10 offsuit before the flop and hitting nothing more than 7s with two or thee overcards on the board.


Player two went through 3 racks before going and borrowing $100 of his wifes slot money. He had $600+ when I left 1 1/2 hours later. He won three straight hands with flushes on the following cards...3-6, 10-8, and q-5. I remember then q-5 clearly because he called my preflop A-Q raise, called a flop raise when an A hit, called a turn raise and won when he made his flush on the river.


My question is, are these good players. I understand you are not advocating playing this loose. However, these are real world examples of what Dynasty was refering to as being results oriented.


I have a lot of leaks in may game as was pointed out this weekend. Remember that there are many facets to good poker other than just starting hands. A lot of your variation may come as you try and apply some of what you are learning from your studies.


I saw ano

I've found that a lot of these loose-passive games are populated by players who are extremely unaware of how the other players are playing. Fact is, if they are smart enough to observe other players, they are usually smart enough not to play a loose-passive game. So what I do in this type of game is to TIGHTEN UP!.... don't get me wrong, you can certainly limp invery late position with a very wide range of hands ifthere have been a lot of callers and you play well after the flop. But my point is this: tight play means you are a favorite to win most pots that you enter, and if you are not punished for playing tight (which usually entails being manipulated by tough players after the flop) then it is simply the way to go. I've sat for literally 12 hours at a time in games where the same players call my UTG raises with absolute crap, time and time again, because they just don't care to observe the fact that I have a premium hand in this spot.(hell they often don't know what a premium hand is). You do have to make some very close calls on when to lay a hand down, but loose-passive games are a rare treat to some easy cash!

Fact is, if they are smart enough to observe other players, they are usually smart enough not to play a loose-passive game.


This makes no sense to me. A smart player would know that a loose-passive game is the easiest to beat.

This may sound ridiculous, but I think in the long run it helps to get the living crap kicked out of you when you begin your "poker career." I had the typical bad beats, massive losing streaks, etc. when I started playing. Now this is bad if it gets you so discouraged that you quit the game. But what it did for me is it forced me to read and reread "the books", searching for answers as to why I was getting killed. It made me be a student of the game. If I had been like a few of my friends and had some lucky winning sessions and very few bad beats as I was starting out, I probably would have been some of them, gotten the attitude that "I know this game, what do I need to study books for? I have this shit all figured out." Blah Blah Blah. Which is of course complete stupidity. You can never figure out a system that is better than what people like David Sklansky, et al have been thinking about for their whole lives. To disagree with their advice on strategy because, "My way is better," is sheer lunacy. Yet I have observed/talked to many people who have gotten some lucky wins and it has convinced them that they know better. This is disastrous to the prospects of them ever becoming a good poker player. I got killed so much that I was forced to admit that I did NOT know the game at all, not even close, and I needed to study my ass off just to have a winning session. Guess what? I still feel that way.

That is the awful siren song of poker. I can't tell you how many otherwise extremely intelligent people I have played with who just play crazy hands like T7 offsuit, Q-2 suited, etc., and then justify it by saying, "last week I won 140 bucks playing that hand." Never mind they are down 3 grand for the year.

And you are right, it happens all the time that someone sits down and plays garbage hands, and wins pot after pot after pot, hitting every flop, piling up hundreds of bucks of chips. But if they stay long enough (several hours past this), they ALWAYS lose ALL of it back. They can't help but not too. You live by the sword, you die by it.

Just a side comment: even if this method did work, which it patently does not for more than a few god gifted hours in a blue moon, what would be the fun of that? You'd just call with every hand, and if you hit the flop you hit it. There would be no skill, a one eyed lobotomized jackrabbit could do that, he'd just have to shove the chips forward with his nose. Might as well play the slots. Actually, players that call with everything and go on amazing streaks are like slot players who get lucky once a year and hit a 600 jackpot. Of course they lose 800 overall for the year, but who's counting?

Really, I do think you have some good ideas, and you are way ahead of most of your opponents. It is obvious you have read books about the game and just by virtue of that you are miles ahead of most people you will play against. But this game is such an enormous ass kicker. All I can advise is that you can never have it down, you will think you do many times and then it will bite you in the ass and just destroy you. All you can do is study the game so much that you know it inside out, and then play the way the experts have learned is the right way to play. This takes YEARS to accomplish. My advice is to not be so results oriented. Make your goal to play well, I have had winning sessions where I know I played like crap and got lucky, and losing sessions where I know I played great and got sucked out on all night. Whether you win or lose one session is in not indicative of whether you are any good or not. Now when you look at your results over a whole year, that is a different story. Good luck and you are on the right track; like the others have recommended, I highly recommend the loose games section in HPFAP, Lee Jones WLLHE, and The Psychology of Poker. GREAT books that will improve your game dramatically, as they do mine every time I read them.


Tim

As an addendum to my post and the following post, my losses from the past weekend were almost unanimously from a tight and passive game.

hey dynasty-


"Fact is, if they are smart enough to observe other players, they are usually smart enough not to play a loose-passive game.


This makes no sense to me. A smart player would know that a loose-passive game is the easiest to beat."


i think what matt is saying is that if they were smart players they wouldnt play a loose passive style, not that they wouldnt play in a loose passive game, so they are not going to be good enough to put serious moves on him

There is a difference between playing high odds cards and playing bad cards. If you get at least seven players in with you for no raise, calling with any two cards is not that bad. Throw in a raise or two and you are playing holdem slots.


Going for the inside straight is correct if the odds are there. If you are in a game with any raising at all and you play 95s which say for arguements sake is a 1:7 winning hand with two sb raises each round, you could get $300.00 plus in, in a $4-8 game before realizing one winning hand. That one win, probably won't make up for your losses on the other 95s hands. Then with a win or two more your real profit is only a few chips, and the cycle repeats. If you miscalculate your odds your win rate is zero or worse off those hands. That's a lot of investment for a few chips when there are better investments you could make. Then if you play 6:1 hands, 5:1 hands, etc.... You end up investing some serious dollars and not realize any profit. Your deviation is through the roof and your digging in your wallet looking for one more $20.00.


Take the Gal in your post. She was $400.00 (?) in the game when she pulled out her _last_ $60.00. She got lucky and won. She could have went home broke and broken just as easily. Player two could have won those hands without borrowing from his wife's money, and he would have had a bigger win if he played better.


As for your final question, these are players who may have a gambling problem and need the excitement imo. If they were good players would they be playing these limits? Can you imagine players at the $20-40 or higher limits playing like that? It may happen, but it's not the norm.


If you like the excitement and money is no issue, play every hand, that's okay. Just don't confuse big wins with good play. Many of those big wins are an illusion.


I know a player who drops over $2000.00 a month at $4-8. I've seen him $1000.00 ahead some days and go home broke. He's never a winner over a period of time. He _has_ to play, and somehow he manages to afford his addiction, but at what cost?

I would also claim that you are confused.


I posted a while ago about adjustments to a loose game. But there were 9 players in that game who were loose-stupid. Are you sure the game you play in is such that the adjustments you need to make are so severe?


Even in a loose game, tight-aggressive gets the money. It just takes a long time to prove is all.


By the way, over hundreds and thousands of hours of play, your loose-aggressive heroes get killed. What you see them do in a lucky 3 hours is not what usually happens. There are periods in a game where you cannot win a pot for hours. What's more, people quickly learn to just call loose-aggressive types down. What do you suppose happens then? Try this: the next time you see a loose-aggressive take down a monster win, notice how many times they had to show down. If they are constantly showing down winners, you know they are just getting lucky.

Daithi,


Several posters, most notably Bernie, Tim and Dynasty have eloquently expressed their opinions on the pitfalls of the style of play you are trying to cultivate and there is not much that I can add here. However, I would like to mention that, in my game in AC, there are two regulars whose plays are very similar to the style you are trying to emulate. To make matter worse, THEY THINK they are good players. These guys' stacks fluctuate like the Dow Jones' graph everytime there is a rumor of an oil shortage and are frequently either digging into their pockets or trekking to the ATM machine. In side discussions with other regulars who have more solid games, these guys have a cross hair marked on their forehead everytime they are seated on the table.


I'm sure you know what I mean.

"If they were good players would they be playing these limits? Can you imagine players at the $20-40 or higher limits playing like that? It may happen, but it's not the norm."


I guess its time for you to come see the weekend $20/$40 game at the mohegan sun casino in southeastern connecticut.


You just can't imagine what they are thinking.. or even if they are thinking at all. They talk a big game but they play just like it was the training table.


The only difference between the 20/40 and the 4/8 that was described at foxwoods, is the 20/40 game is AGGRESSIVE.. *VERY* AGGRESSIVE. *MIND BOGGLINGLY* AGGRESSIVE. YOU JUST CANT BELIEVE HOW AGGRESSIVE IT IS.


Read people? Not.

Daithi,


I like to think the dilema of these loose players winning in terms of the slot machine. While at a B&M casino every 15/20 minutes like clockwork you hear bells, see lights flashing and someone screaming -- they just hit a minor jackpot. About every hour like clockwork you hear/see a very large jackpot winner -- the guy on the floor walks over, security guards are standing around. There are big slot winners! There are allot of winners! There are videos, and lots of people telling you how you can win at the slots. Can you win? Yes, there are lots of winners. Are these long term winners -- maybe the large jackpot winners. Can 99% of the players win over the long term playing slots? Absolutely not -- there is abosolutely no way you can win over the long-term.


The same holds true for playing a loose game. It is a statistical dog over the long term. Sure there are lots of winners, and they may even be long-term winners. But if I had to pick, I'd go with a system that is stacked in my favour. Just another thought.

I spent 9 hours this Saturday in the Foxwoods 4-8 game, not sure if we were at the same table or not. I ended up walking away up 60 BB, was my best session on record. Not sure if we were in the same game (if I remember correctly there were 2 or 3 4-8 tables going).


You're right about loosening up -- its been very profitable for me in this game, BUT it needs to be done selectively. The Foxwoods 4-8 tends to be VERY loose-passive. I've had a lot of success limping up front with suited connecters down to 6-5 and one-gaps down to 8-6 or so, as well as small PPs and suited As, because its extremely rare to see a raise preflop. On the other hand, offsuit high cards are virtually worthless from up front -- I generally toss off anything but AK and AQ from up front.


Postflop, it helps to have a good read on the players in the game. One thing I've picked up on is that while some players will chase you to the river if they catch any part of the flop, others turn weak-tight post-flop and will release a decent hand when faced with any sort of sustained aggression. I've had a lot of success pushing certain types of hands postflop against these players, hands like middle pair with an overcard kicker and medium PPs with an overcard on the board.


I've also played around a little with the pot manipulation techniques Sklansky details in the HEPFAP-21 loose games section, things like waiting for a blank to fall on the turn before pushing high pairs. I've liked my results so far but haven't spent nearly enough time on it to draw any conclusions.

Great Analogy!