home game difficulties. No-Limit Hold em

[needshelp]

I am having a hard time agaisnt the weaker players in my weekly home game. We play $20 table limit, with .25-.50 antes. On a typical night we have around 7 players. 3 of the players are solid(calculate pot odds, know percentages, play stronger hands), 2 players are reakless( will call $3-$4 raises with almost any suited hold cards, KXo, and AXo) and 2 players are inbetween. My issue is with these reakless players, since they play so loose I am unable to put them on hands very often. They chase any and all draws, including backdoors. Recently one of the loose players has began to try and "help me" with me shortcommings. Saying that math does not apply and I worry too much about the odds. I know this is insane, however last night we played for 12hours str8..and my "tutor" ended up taking home the majority of the cash. example of play another loose player goes all in with AA, the tutor calls witrh JJ. Everyone at the table knew player#1 had AA, including the tutor however he figured he could get lucky and hit a jack...well guess what the river brough..a jack!
3 handed, the button folds, I'm in the sb with K/Jo and raise it $4...i am determined not to give him a free flop and let his "luck beat me." He calls with 9/5s, the flop is Q,blank,5...I bet $4 and he calls, the turn is a 9(two pair!!?!?!?!) I bet $5 and he raises it to $10, I call as he is a bluffer...the river is a K. He bets $7 and I call. UGH!
The final hand for me is my K5s vs. his QQ..the flop is K,J,5...I check to him and he beats $5...I go all in for $30...he says to me..i know you have me beat right now..but i want the chance to take you out..and he calls! THe turn is a Queen! the river is a blank.
I usually just tighten up and play only strong hands, however these is pretty rough to do agaisnt your friends, as they taught you all night for being "too tight"

HELP!!!

[blackaces13]

I dont see what you're complaining about. Sounds like a great game that you will make a lot of money in as long as you keep playing in the future. And the fact that you're main gripe is with the bad players who chase anything is ass backwards and I think you realize that. I think you already know that this is totally illogical and NOT a valid complaint. Keep these players happy and keep them coming back, they are the ones you should relish playing against.

[thirddan]

sounds like a good game...you might try to seat yourself to the loose players left so that you can act after him and isolate him with your premium hands...also remember that this kind of player will lose in the long run and you will reap the benefits, but when a maniac gets on a run it is usually a big one...good luck...

[needshelp]

thanks for the help, I guess it was just his night last night...frustrated me to no end. I do find it almost impossbile to bluff out these kind of loose mainiac players..is it wise to limit bluffing agaisnt them?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I do find it almost impossbile to bluff out these kind of loose mainiac players..is it wise to limit bluffing agaisnt them?

[/ QUOTE ]

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[thirddan]

definitely remove most bluffing...
think of it this way...
when you bluff you want the other player to fold, so would you ever bluff someone that you know will call you?

[mandorellin]

(it's my first time posting at this forum).
I've been a magician for three years and about half a year ago i decided to get into poker seriously, since I've been playing cards/handling cards all my life.
So I go out and buy a book and learn the basic strategies for winning at limit holdem.
Now I suggest to my friends that we should have a weekly poker game! Everyone gets into it and starts playing. What seems wrong to me is that I'm the only one with the strategy-knowledge and yet I'm the only one that hasn't come out on top in most of our home games. Is it just me or does it make no sense if only one person is playing with a good strategy and everyone else is just limping in with nothing all the time?
I know that I should be playing 1 good hand every hour or so, and that the object is to win in the longrun, not about winning the most pots. But it kills me inside when i see people calling, betting, and even raising when all they have is a really low pair or something like J-5o. AND THEY WIN! I mean it's ok to bluff, but doing it all the time is just dumb. It's more the maniacs and the fish that take home the $$ at the end of the night than me. "Your aim is to win in the longrun"..."You're trying to do well in the longrun"
Fair enough...but how long is a long run??
Should there be a specific strategy to playing against all players like this? Because eventually if I just keep playing with an understanding of starting hands and folding everything that isn't the best, or worth calling, I'm going to be losing more money just because I'm paying big and small blind all the time.

I hope this makes sense to you guys, maybe some of you have felt this way too. Anyway, get back to me if you can. I would really appreciate it. (Or email me at grael_@hotmail.com)

Thanks again for reading this,

[blackaces13]

Two extremely important questions, if the answer to either is yes then you should expect to lose:

1. Are you playing shorthanded, this means 6 players or less?

2. Did you read "Play Poker Like the Pros" by Phil Hellmuth Jr.?

If the answer to either of these is yes then I think I can help you out. If the answer to both of these is yes then I may have just saved your future sanity. Welcome aboard.

[thirddan]

i don't know if this is true of your game, but many "social" home games are played short handed (less than 6 players) and require a much different strategy than a 10 handed game...Check out the Shorthanded Forum here, because a Loose Aggressive style may be much more suited to your particular game...good luck

[Thats Interesting!]

They are not as weak as you thought they were. You need a winning strategy! Dont play by the book. Sandbag alot and slow play alot. Stop bluffing, you know they are going to call!

This may come as a shock, but I think your not as good as you may first think.

Your first priority is to beat the table not play "winning poker" and wonder why your not winning.

Adjust to the loose call stations, otherwise you'll go broke before they do.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mandorellin]

Usually we play shorthanded yeah....
And no it wasn't Play Poker like the pros. It's "Winning at Poker - Essential hints and tips" by Dave Sharf.

So basically what you're saying is that I'm destined to lose? lol...that doesn't seem right....

[blackaces13]

Here's the thing, most hold 'em manuals stress tightness as a key to success. And tightness is the fundamental element of getting the money in a 10 handed ring game. The reason you can/should be patient at a full table is because the blinds take a LONG time to hit you so you can afford to sit there and bide your time and wait for premium hands. Also, since there are 9 other people getting hands and pressumably being selective as well, it takes a very solid hand for you to feel comfortable that it will be stronger than the ones you'll be seeing a flop with.

But with only 4 or 5 players total in the game, you'll be paying the blind almost half the time!!! So you can't afford fold a hand like KJo now, in fact you probably want to be raising pre-flop with it. Furthermore, there is a MUCH better chance now that KJo is the BEST hand out right now because you're only playing against 3 or 4 random hands as opposed to 9.

So what you have to do in shorthanded play is be a lot looser than that book you have is telling you to be. And more importannyl you have to be MUCH more aggressive. You want to be the one raising when you enter a pot, narrow the field and put pressure on people. When you miss the flop fire bets out there anyway, if you hit top pair weak kicker its an auto-raise. You want to push your edges in this type of format and you can't wait around for AA-JJ or big slick doing it. If you're under the gun with A9o bring it in for a raise, you likely have the best hand out.

If your opponents are extremely loose and bet predictably, ie they bet/raise with very strong hands and call with weaker ones, then fire bets into them and respond accordingly, they'll practically be telling you what they have. If they NEVER fold then don't bluff as much but bet your hands that you think are LIKELY best aggressively for value. Find the players who DO fold and attack them if its you and them heads up on the flop, if they call you then use that info.

What hands am I talking about here? If they game is 5 handed you want to be playing ANY ACE. You may know that playing any ace is the sign of a poor player, but thats only in a full ring game. Shorthanded you need to be trying to be the first raiser in with any ace, but you don't like calling a raise with the low ones. Any hand that adds up to 20 or more in BJ. ALL PAIRS, if everyone in your game is loose then limp with the low ones (7 and under) and try to bring the higher ones in for a raise. Suited connectors aren't that valuable in shorthanded play but I'd still try to limp with 78s, 89s, and 9Ts in addition to anything higher which would fall under the over 20 in BJ category. Try not to raise with suited connectors, they thrive on making money AFTER the flop not before it.

These are just general guidelines here, most important watch how they react to your bets on the flop and use those reactions to determine how to continue in the hand. If you're playing with a bunch of loose/passive new players you should have absolutely no problem KILLING them shorthanded. Just remember you have to play the hands to win them. If you play better than they do post flop that's even more reason to limp in with marginal holding and release if you don't get hit hard with the flop.

Hope this helps, if you need more specifics or have any further questions let me know. I play in a home game too and its a great way to make extra cash.

[needshelp]

what do you mean by, beating the table?

[needshelp]

The first book i purchased was Hellmuth's book. After reading some others it is Phil's not one i recommend to others nor do I revisit it. What are your misgivings about it?

[thirddan]

i think what he means is that "winning poker" changes based on certain table conditions...for example in a full ring game with loose players a tight/aggressive approach is best, wait for premium starters and get the money...in a shorthanded game loose/aggressive is often the correct approach because the quality of hands you are against is often worse because only 5 hands were dealt instead of 10...You must adjust your strategy to the situation at hand and play with the correct strategy to beat the opponent you are across from...