K7s on the button.

[Joe Tall]

10/20 Foxwoods. I haven't posted a hand in months it seems and this one came up yesterday. In retrospect I know exactly what I would do next time but I'll post it anyway.

Fellow 2+2er and friend, JTG, is sitting to my immediate left. Yes, I know he's got position, he always does, even sat to my left at dinner again. /images/graemlins/grin.gif JTG was offering too high a price for the seat change button, so I'm stuck here. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

On to the hand:

My opponent in the hand I had played with before. He didn't seem to get out of line much. He had made comments in the past about my solid play, for what that's worth.

This opponent went to war preflop versus JTG on 2 hands prior to my hand. JTG held KK and he held QQ, where JTG should have called his preflolp 3-bet once heads up and stuck in a check-raise on a later street, but that's just my chance to point the finger, heh. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Instead, JTG 4-bet, the opponent call and then it was bet/call, etc, JTG-wins.

3 limpers to me and I limp w/K /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif, JTG folds, Big Blind checks.

5 to the flop for 5 SBs.

FLOP: 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

This "opponent" (and EP limper) bets out, call-station calls in the CO, and I raise, all call.

TURN: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

The "opponent" bets into me and the call-station folds.

What's your action?

Comments on all streets welcome, Thank God baseball season starts this week, Ok, Ok, I'm a closet UConn fan (friend is assistant coach) GO HUSKIES!

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

The table was extremely passive preflop and the button limp is routine as I think JTG would agree.

Also, since the Stop-n-Go seems to give all of us problems it seems (as recent as Nottom's post), is there any way we can use it to our advantage. I assume heads-up versus thinking players, you could come up with a reason to use it.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Guido]

Preflop nothing wrong there I think. Good raise on the flop with your top pair good kicker. On the turn he best into you again, most of the time you see this play from somebody with an overpair like 88, 99 or TT or top pair and still thinks he has the best hand because he thinks you raised your overcards for a free look at the river or he has a flush draw. You said the preflop play was passive which would mean they don't raise 99 or TT most of the time. There are 8.5BB in the pot on your turn call. If you think he would make this play with a flush draw I would raise and fold to a re-raise. If you think he's on an overpair or just top pair I probably would call.

Guido

[sthief09]

I agree with you about the stop and go giving everyone fits. I'm not sure if when you say "use it to our advantage" if you mean be able to defend against it or to implement it in our own games. I think there is a way of doing both.

a few weeks ago I made a post where I flopped quads, bet the flop, called a raise, then bet the turn. I think it confuses thinking players and sometimes maximizes profit because if you put an aggressive opponent on a medium-strong hand and a blank falls, you will make an extra bet, as compared to check-raising.

as for defending against it, I think that in general it shows a combination of an opponent's strength, his unsureness of where he stands in the hand, and his doubt that you have anything good. I notice online it happens to me more the longer I stay at the table. That is because I play overly aggressive and people don't respect my raises on the flop much.

so that leads me to this hand. there are a few possible reasons I think for him to stop and go:
- he just caught a straight. that would require him to have either A5 or 67, completing a gut shot straight. I don't think your typical player would bet a gut shot draw on the flop out of position.
- he's got a strong hand but is unsure of where he is. your raise scares him but he genuinely thinks he has a good hand. that would be 2-pair (not possible here), TPTK, a small set, or an overpair.
- he planned on check raising you on the turn, but a scary card came so he bet out.

I think the only hand you can beat here is like 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, which is certainly possible. but for some reason I just can't imagine someone doing a stop and go with this holding. I feel like he'd be more apt to pump the pot on the flop. or maybe he is betting into you hoping you will raise and get more money in the pot in case he hits one of his 14 (in his mind he has 14) outs.

to see a showdown, it will cost you 13 bets to win 2 bets. I think you will be ahead of him more than 1 out of 7.5 situations. however, he probably has plenty of outs, and I think that kills the price.

so I fold unhappily

[Gramps]

Hmmmm....loose-passive game, guy who doesn't get out of line much (does he ever come out betting his draws on the flop?), thinks you're a solid player, capable of a 3-bet when he has the goods (e.g. QQ vs. KK hand), so his not 3-betting the flop with that flush draw out there would seem to give some information.

If he had trips on the flop, good chance he would have 3-bet. A medium overpair, seems like a good chance he would have 3-bet. To just call your raise (to help make sure CO doesn't get knocked out?), but then bet out on the Turn, that smells like there's a real chance he has a top pair/flush draw hand. 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (if his dude would play these EP) or A /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif seem like real possibilities. Depends on his starting hand requirements up front (could he even play 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif). Of course...someone with A5s or 65s, 44, etc. might do the same...

If this guy could play 76s and 87s up front in this loose-passive game, I'd raise the Turn and fold to a 3-bet. If this dude made a straight with his A /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, has trips, etc., you're drawing dead. If he'd play back with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif here, you only have a 2 outer, so getting folded out by that hand ain't too bad. Same price as calling a Turn and River bet. Betting the River if raise called/checked to...if that happens and no spade comes (or 5, 6 or 8), then I'd value bet the River as well.

I think the pots too big (13 SB to you on Turn) to fold, given the decent chance you still have the best hand (that'll hold up about 2/3 of the time).

[chesspain]

I don't see the point of raising and folding to a reraise, since:

1) Opponent will not be folding to JT's possible raise, since he has to expect that JT might raise again; indeed, it's unlikely Opponent would come out betting again unless he is prepared to call a raise,

and

2) Unless JT is up a against a str8 or a set of 7s, both of which seem pretty unlikely, he has as many as five outs, and so should not be raising if this means he needs to fold to a reraise.

Consequently, I think he should just call, and decide what to do on the river based upon the card that falls and any read he has on his opponent at that time.

[Mike Gallo]

Preflop fine.

Flop fine

Turn I would call or reraise player dependant and my read. He could have 99 or 88 he could have the flush draw with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Given the opponent you have desribed, I would call the and raise the river if I hit a non spade 7 or K. If I do not improve I would call the river.

[Gramps]

From EP's perspective, if he has something like 87 or 76, it's a pretty standard play to bet into the probable flush draw flop raiser on the Turn (as EP still has top pair). There was no raise preflop. There's two spades on the board. It goes bet, bet, and the button raises on a 7-3-2 board (not many hands that this flop gets a piece of). This sends off "flush draw bells" in many (even average) players heads. The standard play against this raise for many players (when your hand is good but not great - ahead of a draw, but likely to be outkicked if raiser has top pair) is just to call the raise and bet again on the Turn, assuming a blank falls. For a hand like top pair/medicore kicker, it may be preferable (in their eyes at least) to 3-betting the flop and risking a 4-bet (which doesn't give much info either, since many solid players (which he thinks JT is) will 4-bet a flush draw as well).

So I think EP's Turn bet doesn't communicate strength necessarily. If he thinks JT is on a flush draw, and EP has top pair still, he's likely to bet.

The point of the Turn raise would not be to make the opponent fold, it's that (a) if JT is behind, he probably has zero outs and it will cost him two bets to get to showdown anyhow, and (b) if he's ahead...he wants the extra bet going in there while ahead. If his opponent somehow folds 87 with 3 outs (no flush draw), but would have called a River bet unimproved, then oh well. If his opponent folds 76 with no flush draw, that's good for JT since his opponent has proper odds to call. Since EP doesn't get out of line much, I'm assuming he won't 3-bet JT with a worse hand (e.g. worse kicker but with flush draw). If he would, then raising the Turn becomes less attractive a play.

The assumption is that if his straightforward opponent 3-bets, JT is drawing dead (or if EP would 3-bet A7 of spades, JT only has two outs anyhow), so it's not tragic to get bet out without seeing 1 more card). That's assuming his opponent isn't playing junk (two pair, etc.).

The only hand JT has 5 outs against (that he's likely to be up against) is an overpair (eliminating the possibility of two pair, since EP would have to play junk to have that). My assumption is that opponent would 3-bet this on the flop, knock out CO, and make the possible JT flush draw pay to see another card. Player dependent, but a hand like 88 or 99 that is very vulnerable to overcards would probably 3-bet that flop, knowing it's almost certain to be ahead at that point. 87 and 76 are thinking, "he may be on a flush draw, but he may also have me outkicked" and are more likely to proceed as EP has here.

Of course...all of the above is player dependent. If this player not getting out of line much means that his Turn bet, in face of a flop raise, sends off "big hand bells" in JT's head based on his experience, then play more cautiously. Or if he would play a medium overpair by calling the flop raise, and betting the Turn blank, etc...

[JTG51]

This opponent went to war preflop versus JTG on 2 hands prior to my hand. JTG held KK and he held QQ, where JTG should have called his preflolp 3-bet once heads up and stuck in a check-raise on a later street...

Against an unknown player, out of position, I think 4-betting preflop is fine. Remember, he had just sat down when we played this hand.

I wanted to check raise the turn anyway but he looked very unhappy with his hand. I thought he was most likely to have AK and didn't think he'd bet if I checked.

[JTG51]

The table was extremely passive preflop and the button limp is routine as I think JTG would agree.

What makes you think that? The fact that you saw me limp from LP with Q7s a few hands earlier? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Joe Tall]

Your line is fine. I would have jumped out my skin if you did call, knowing what was coming!

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Joe Tall]

To review, the board is:

Flop: 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Turn: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

A 'seems straight forward' opponent has called my flop raise and bet the turn.

I thought for a minute, at first I contemplated raising, then switched to folding and then I actually called.

River: 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

My opponent hesitates and checks, and reach for my chips with my right hand and have a brain fart and check with my left.

I missed a value bet as my opponent tabled J /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and I dragged it. JTG and I agreed we overestimated this opponent.

I suck at poker,
Joe Tall

[elindauer]

Hi Joe,

Usually when I see a stop and go on a 2-flush board, it signals a made hand that is concerned about you raising on a flush draw. It's not that the 4 improved his hand, in fact, he'd likely check-raise you after hitting his gutshot straight, it's that a lower-than-seven-non-spade hit, which is golden for him. He probably has top-pair-something-kicker, so you certainly shouldn't fold.

This is an excellent time to raise the turn and check behind if you don't improve.

[Luke]

Fellow 2+2er and friend, JTG, is sitting to my immediate left. Yes, I know he's got position, he always does, even sat to my left at dinner again.

I assume from this comment that you'd prefer to have JTG on your left.

A little while back there was a post where I played in a Borgata game with 2+2er Mikey and it was mentioned that he had "position on me" (sitting to my left) and not to my liking.

Clarkmeister responded and I think it's worth repeating here:

You do not want position on the tight players. You want them to have position on you. This will enable you to steal their blinds and buy the button with raises in LP. Also, and most importantly, you get first right to raise and blow them out of the pot against all the fish on your right. Ideally you want all the idiots on your right and all the thinkers on your left. They simply don't get enough 3-betting quality hands to worry about, even if the *know* you are raising a little lighter than usual.

Sorry Joe if I'm pointing out something that you already knew, but I figured that if not you then some other posters/readers could get something out of it.

Luke

[Joe Tall]

Sorry Joe if I'm pointing out something that you already knew, but I figured that if not you then some other posters/readers could get something out of it.

It was some what of a joke, but I remember Clark's thoughts on this and they are very valid. It's a great point to bring up, thanks Luke.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Festus22]

Just out of curiousity here, what do you think should be EP's line of play (putting aside the dreadful PF limp of course).

Against an acknowledged solid player such as yourself, I think I'd bet out the flop and then 3-bet your raise. I'd then lead the turn and river given the cards that appeared. Would you play his hand the same?

[Joe Tall]

Besides the PF-limp yes...

I think I'd bet out the flop and then 3-bet your raise. I'd then lead the turn and river given the cards that appeared.

This is a great line of play.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Gramps]

Nice, J7s in EP. If I'm playing in a 3/6 Party game, I'm really liking my table when I see that. J7s at 10/20 live? I gotta get out and play more live poker.

And what's nicer...table coaches don't berate J7s EP players face to face like they do anonymously over the internet. Just let 'em keep on limpin... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Knowing this guy plays J7s, I might have been scared of that River card as well, especially if he was one of those people who, when spiking a card on the River to make/improve their hand, likes to "overfake" like it didn't help them - then check-raise your arse when you bet. 76s and 75s seem like hands he'd have played the same way up until this point.

Edit: But yes, (now) knowing he plays J7s (or probably T7s, 97s, 87s, maybe even Q7s), it's a value bet on the end. And if EP has 76s, he may just check-call you. Of course...that's easy to say now with the results already known, and new information revealed about your opponent's (lower) starting hand requirements...

[AviD]

No people are still "teaching" others in live games...saw it all weekend long in 6/12 with MG.

Player after player after player left our game to go sit in another because of "teachers" tell them how they "should" play. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Joe Tall]

No people are still "teaching" others in live games...saw it all weekend long in 6/12 with MG.

You should tell MG to STFU and stop smoking that crack. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Did he tell you to limp-re-raise w/A4s too? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Damn table coach,
Joe Tall

[AviD]

HAHAHA

MG was teaching the teachers...he is quite funny at the table. I did tell him to quiet down in conversation at times...was too funny! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And mid session, the table was prime for a limp re-raise with A4s, maybe even A3s, but definitely not A2s! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mike Gallo]

MG was teaching the teachers...he is quite funny at the table. I did tell him to quiet down in conversation at times...was too funny!

I basically had to tell the teachers to stop showing how smart they think they are. We had one live player Friday night chased away by two semi knowledgable players. I left the game a little after the live player left. He made the game worth playing.

I encourage the poor players to play bad.

[AviD]

Mike also likes to scare the hell out of you his first time in the BB by slamming the table with his hand and yelling CHECK!!!

I think the dealer even jumped out of her seat that hand! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[WillMagic]

The MG complimenting is getting out of hand.

Let's just settle it here.

MG is perfect in almost every single way.

The only reason there is an almost in the previous statement is because he dips his french fries in mayo.

It's settled.

Will

[Joe Tall]

I encourage the poor players to play bad.

So don't I; I just couldn't resist that open-ender AviD left!

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Diplomatdcm]

ok aside from the horrible preflpo limp i like the way he played the stop and go with a big hand, am I jsut stupid?