Folding KQs after seeing the flop

This is one of those situations that just get under my skin. Today, I was playing 3-6, but during the day, rather than at night. It was a fairly standard situation with most people playing too loosely. They particularly tended to ignore raises pre-flop (in-for-one-in-for-four.) The two fellows to the right of me, however, were a fair bit tighter, at least passable players. They were also highly critical, even abusive, about other players playing. Often muttering comments back and forth to each other. (They'd both been caught in the common experience of being sucked out on by trash.) Anyway, I am two to the right of the button and the first one in. I have KhQh. I raise. All four players smooth call.


The flop come 6d6c4c. LB bets out. BB calls.


I look at my hand again, hesitate a little too long, and muck. The other players call.


One of the two critics said, "Raise before the flop and fold on the flop, you do that a lot." The second one said, "That's because he raises with trash." I opened my mouth to explain my thinking, but then thought why justify myself to these two?


Anyway, my reasoning was that with a pair and a flush draw on the board, facing an almost certain four opponents, there was essentially no hope with this hand. I wasn't going to be driving anyone out wtih a raise, someone could have one of the missing sixes. Moreover, two of my possible outs (Kc and Qc) were quite possibly negated. Plus, an Ace is scary. The way I saw it. I couldn't drive enough people out, and the only way I could win is to get two running cards OR one of my four outs AND a complete blank. So, what would I be accomplishing by staying in this hand? The only reason I hesitated is that I hated to throw away something so pretty.


That said, I was doing poorly that day (playing with some unfamiliar players and not developing a good feel for their styles) and down a bit. I had also raised a few times, only to muck on the flop. (All legitimate I thought. I had made some totally different errors that I had idnetified.) Now, however, my confidence is a little off. So, I have three questions:


1. Was this raise to aggressive?


2. Was folding the right choice?


3. Is a raise pre-flop followed by a fold on the flop the right play on occasion or is it a sign of too loose raising standards?

>This is one of those situations that just get

>under my skin. Today, I was playing 3-6, but

>during the day, rather than at night. It was a

>fairly standard situation with most people

>playing too loosely. They particularly tended to

>ignore raises pre-flop (in-for-one-in-for-four.)

>The two fellows to the right of me, however,

>were a fair bit tighter, at least passable

>players. They were also highly critical, even

>abusive, about other players playing. Often

>muttering comments back and forth to each other.

>(They'd both been caught in the common

>experience of being sucked out on by trash.)

>Anyway, I am two to the right of the button and

>the first one in. I have KhQh. I raise. All four

>players smooth call.


Ok.


>The flop come 6d6c4c. LB bets out. BB calls.


So there is a problem with your hand. You can muck quietly here.


>I look at my hand again, hesitate a little too

>long, and muck. The other players call.


Ok.


>One of the two critics said, "Raise before the

>flop and fold on the flop, you do that a lot."

>The second one said, "That's because he raises

>with trash." I opened my mouth to explain my

>thinking, but then thought why justify myself to

>these two?


I have a story for you. I was playing an Omaha-hi game. I had Aces but only one of them was suited (in spades). The other two cards were small one-gappers. Maybe AA46. Maybe AA57. Anyways... It's called many times to me in late position. I just call. The button raises us. Everyone calls to me. I reraise. The button reraises. Everyone calls. I just call. The button says, "Well, it's whoever hits his pocket pair, then."


The flop is K-high with two spades and I had a shot at hitting a gutshot straight. Well, there is a 3-way raising war with several people caught in the middle. By the river, I miss. Some new player bets out and it looks like he must have a straight. Someone else with two pair calls him. The new player tries to use 3 cards to make his straight. The winner had 4 spades in his hand.


So one of the guys who is trapped in the ridiculous action is asking me what I had. I finally tell him, "Look, don't ask me exactly what was in my hand." So he moves on to the button and asks the button what he had. The button, who is a big guy with big hands, gives him the finger and says: "I was betting with this. I was raising with this. Understand?"


>Anyway, my reasoning was that with a pair and a

>flush draw on the board, facing an almost

>certain four opponents, there was essentially no

>hope with this hand. I wasn't going to be

>driving anyone out wtih a raise, someone could

>have one of the missing sixes. Moreover, two of

>my possible outs (Kc and Qc) were quite possibly

>negated. Plus, an Ace is scary. The way I saw

>it. I couldn't drive enough people out, and the

>only way I could win is to get two running cards

>OR one of my four outs AND a complete blank. So,

>what would I be accomplishing by staying in this

>hand? The only reason I hesitated is that I

>hated to throw away something so pretty.


Fine.


>That said, I was doing poorly that day (playing

>with some unfamiliar players and not developing

>a good feel for their styles) and down a bit. I

>had also raised a few times, only to muck on the

>flop. (All legitimate I thought. I had made some

>totally different errors that I had idnetified.)

>Now, however, my confidence is a little off. So,

>I have three questions:


>1. Was this raise to aggressive?


It's fine.


>2. Was folding the right choice?


Also fine.


>3. Is a raise pre-flop followed by a fold on the

>flop the right play on occasion or is it a sign

>of too loose raising standards?


If you never folded on the flop after raising preflop, you would be playing too loose.

1. KQs is as hand you want to play multi-way for as cheaply as possible. Raising first in from LMP IMO is a bit too aggressive for the loose game you described.


2. Yes, definitely. You hit your K or Q on the turn and you're probably still a dawg or maybe even drawing close to dead, especially against opponents with loose BTF standards.


3. IMO it would be the right play almost 100 percent of the time in this scenario. And yes, to an observant player, it would be a sign of loose raising standards, but most at the LL are not.


KC50

id have seen the turn for a bet...you may not be beat. your on the right track with only 4 outs...


ive raised preflop with Axs with limpers to me...then missed the flop and folded. let the idiots talk...they obviously arent THAT great.


but i woulda slid one off here. but maybe paid more too if i hit and find out im beaten. /images/smile.gif


if during the hand, one of your cards comes, but ya still woulda lost, then hey...good move. ya saved some chips...


just some ideas...


b

****1. KQs is as hand you want to play multi-way for as cheaply as possible. Raising first in from LMP IMO is a bit too aggressive for the loose game you described.****


Are you serious? It's folded to you two off the button and you don't raise? KQs is a great hand and is almost certain to be the best pre-flop, given that 5-6 people have folded already.

on loose passive tables, i raise with all kinds of suited connnectors. puts more in for if i hit the flop. make the weak players pay early to see the flop. if theyre gonna play crap, im chargin em...


KQs can be played either way here. id be inclined to raise, especially with this position, but limping isnt bad either.


b

I think your raise PF with 4 players to go was a good raise. CO and button had to call 2 bets cold and blinds had to add more to pot. Just your bad luck that all four called. I would have halfway expected to see them all fold.


Your fold on flop was the right play IMHO because you would have been chasing with over cards. I hate depending on overcards under those circumstances.


I am fairly new at HE, but that is my opinion for what it is worth.


Don

You played it just how I would have played it. I would raise with KQs from any position in a typical LL game, let alone 2 off the button when no one has opened. 3 times out of 4 you will win it right there or get it heads up at least; it was just your bad luck that 4 smooth called and you whiffed on the flop. I think to take a card off here, with 2 people betting ahead of you and zilch on the flop that helps your hand, is a terrible play. You played it just fine.

I too have raised preflop and flopped nothing, then mucked and been ridiculed by idiots. It is irritating but revenge can be sweet. One time I raised with AQ of hearts preflop, totally missed the flop, 3 people bet ahead of me with about 4 still to act behind, and I mucked. This guy who had been playing stuff like T4 and J3 burst out laughing, as if he couldn't believe how stupid I was. The only silver lining is if they think you are a complete idiot then they won't take your play seriously, and you can value bet a lot more when the flop does hit you. They will call your raise with AA because, "that guy raises with crap!" It is annoying but ultimately profitable.

Tim

I raise with KQs in every position from UTG to the button regardless of how many players are already in the pot, regarless of how tight/loose the game is, and regardless of how aggressive/passive the game is.

lol Dynasty!


But you have to add the rider for drew's benefit that you raise every hand every time from anywhere! /images/wink.gif

****1. KQs is as hand you want to play multi-way for as cheaply as possible. Raising first in from LMP IMO is a bit too aggressive for the loose game you described.****


After I said this I knew I'd get flamed. Guess I should have clarified it more.


Yes, I agree that KQs does become a strong hand after several have folded to you, 2 off the button. However in a loose game, you are very vulnerable to being 3-bet by the cutoff or the button to isolate you with a hand that is easily dominated or behind any pair or Ax.


Now you wrote, "KQs is a great hand and is almost certain to be the best pre-flop, given that 5-6 people have folded already".


There is some logic to this. Except for the "and is almost certain to be the best pre-flop, given that 5-6 people have folded already" part. Several have folded which could also be "almost certain that better hands (at least ones that loose players will limp with) are with the remaining players. And loose players with Ax or any pair will call you or play back at you.


Most of the posters in this thread seem to think that a raise here will either win the blinds or at least eliminate a couple of players.


The original poster (drew) said: "It was a fairly standard situation with most people playing too loosely. They particularly tended to ignore raises pre-flop (in-for-one-in-for-four.) The two fellows to the right of me, however, were a fair bit tighter, at least passable players". Now the 2 "tighter passible players" have both passed so all that is left are the loosies.


My reasoning is this. Please think of it now as playing in a short handed game (five-handed). You are UTG with KQs and the rest of the table plays too loosely ("which can be more correct in short handed play"). I could go into more detail, here. However, it should be clear now what I'm trying to get across.


I raise with KQs virtually every time from the CO and button when first to act. That doesn't mean I will never raise in this scenario. So don't get me wrong, a raise is not horrible here. For me, it all depends on game texture, my opponents, and my table image.


Say I limp and then hit the flop strong. Most players will not put me on this hand because they'd figure I'd come in raising with it.


At least I know you wouldn't (not a dig, FatOtt).


:>)


Just something for you all to think about if you care to...


KC50

First you said: "KQs can be played either way here. id be inclined to raise, especially with this position, but limping isnt bad either".


Very sensible statement.


Then you said: "let the idiots talk...they obviously arent THAT great".


Different opinions, new and possibly logical ideas cannot be perceived by a closed mind.


KC50

"Then you said: "let the idiots talk...they obviously arent THAT great".


Different opinions, new and possibly logical ideas cannot be perceived by a closed mind. "


these guys are idiots....when guys criticize otheres play the way drew said, they dont understand the game. telling someone who sucked out on em how to play the way he said they did doesnt help the game. it aggravates the donators.


not a different opinion, its bad for business. though i do love stacking this type of players chips as he's telling me how shitty i am. /images/smile.gif


b

That being critical is like having tunnel vision. It blinds one from being able to look at things except for the way they see it or what they believe in.

1. The Pre-Flop raise is correct.


2. Folding is correct only if you cannot raise. When you raise, your outs may be good or you may be against Trips. The Turn action is what'll let you know if you're drawing dead. Be ready to take a free card if the Turn misses you and/or be ready to fold the Flop if reraised. Also, a runner-runner Flush draw gives you a little added value on the Flop as well.


3. It'll be a long night if you can't fold the Flop after raising pre-Flop!:)

**One of the two critics said, "Raise before the flop and fold on the flop, you do that a lot." The second one said, "That's because he raises with trash." **


What a wonderful place to be in. Next time you raise with AA, these guys will swim right along. /images/smile.gif

My reasoning is this. Please think of it now as playing in a short handed game (five-handed). You are UTG with KQs and the rest of the table plays too loosely ("which can be more correct in short handed play"). I could go into more detail, here. However, it should be clear now what I'm trying to get across.


Ok...if you are clear...you are using this example to justify NOT raising. I have a problem here, please help me. If I am in this situation, I would raise about 100.1% of the time. Let Kxs (or K-Jo etc.) and Qxs and, heaven forbid, Jxs pay 2 bets instead of 1. If Axo is out there why not scare him a bit? Give him a chance to fold pre-flop, or fold on the no-ace flop to my apparent pair. The same goes for those dang baby pairs. Scare them too. And if and Ace flops and no-one paired it: My bet buys this pot on the flop with nut no-pair.


Tell me why I am wrong here?


Treefrog

You are not wrong and I agree with you and the others reasoning. However, my point being was that the original poster specifically described the game as:


"It was a fairly standard situation with most people playing too loosely. They particularly tended to ignore raises pre-flop (in-for-one-in-for-four.)"


This is what I was getting at.


KC50

this hand can go either way, preflop, raised or limped...


but shorthanded? sorry, but im raising UTG with this. shorthanded is an aggressive game, and i want any lone A to pay to see the flop along with any other picture card that could hit the flop.


b

The more I think about it the more I have to agree with you. Except not sure about 100 percent.


However, limping would only be horrible when an ace hit the flop with a K or Q and a raise would have eliminated Ax.


I'm glad it's not necessary to me to be right.


I used to play with a guy named Bernie. We called him S.O.B. (sweet ol' Bernie).


:>)


Thanks for your input.


KC50

i wouldnt do it 100% either, but 80-90...


not a matter of right or wrong really. but this is a great mix play hand. many options with it. especially shorthanded, when your raising with a much wider variety of hands...


b