Common Situation: Your Play?

Playing in a low limit game. You are new to the table so you have no read on your opponents. Most pots you have seen are 3-6 handed usually for one bet.


1 player limps in early position (EP), another middle and another late. The SB completes and you check in the BB with 7d3d.


The flop is: 7h 3h 5h


The SB bets, you raise and the EP player cold calls. SB calls.


Turn board is 7h 3h 5h Jc


SB checks. Do you:


A. Check with the intention of raising

B. Check with the intention of calling

C. Check with the intention of folding

D. Bet with the intention of reraising if raised

E. Bet with the intention of calling if raised

F. Bet with the intention of folding if raised


Assume you see the river and it is a non-straight card that is not a heart, 7 or 3. You are now heads up with EP. What is your river action?


KJS

Ok here, I go. This is scary, posting answers to questions like that when my own experience is limited. All you beginners can take that as a disclamer that if you copy my play, results are not garunteed /images/smile.gif But hey, I figure this is how you learn more right? Alright.


Based on my experience in LL games, I would put SB on either over cards (less likely), top pair or a middle pair (more likely), with a possibility that me may have made a set (maybe, but probably would have slowplayed, or reraised the flop raise). Considering the cold call, EP likely had a single high heart, or overcards (LL players do love those overcards) He also might be slowplaying a flush.


On the turn the jack isn't high enough for me to suspect J7, J3 or J5 from the EP. JJ would probably have raised pre flop. LL players will frequently limp with Ax or Kx, sometimes Qx, but rarely as bad as Jx. SB could be trying to checkraise with the check on the flop, but I don't know a lot of low limit players that are this tricky after showing weakness with just calling the raise. More likely you scared him off with the raise and he decided to take one off and then check-fold (I see this a million times every session I play in, so I think this is correct reasoning). Thus, because of your show of strength early in the hand, I would bet again, with the intention of folding if raised. My reasoning here is that it is quite rare to find a Low Limit player (unless it's a maniac) who would bluff raise into someone who already showed strength on a flop with 3 flush cards without at least a flush themselves. Actually, I have been faced witha similar situation to this in real life and I decided instead to call the raise. I only won because I rivered a full house to beat the raiser's flush. My guess is this was mostly a lot of luck on my part.


Heads up with EP at the river, if it was not a straight card, a 7, 3 or a heart I would check-call for two reasons. One, you might still be beat by a better two pair (since any card not in the list above would have to be a 9 or above) but he might fear a checkraise and check behind you thus saving you a bet (I doubt he would fold a hand like two-pair with KJ even in the face of a flush) and if he did bet, it may be because you induced a bluff, thus you gain a bet. If he did not hit two pair with the river card, he would likely fold to a river bet and thus you gain nothing. So that's it. Did I pass? Please tell me if my reasoning is sound, it would make me a more confident player. But if it's not sound, then tell me why so I can get better and still become a more confident player.

I would go with F on the the turn and check-call the river. I doubt SB would lead out with a made flush - almost all LL players are going to try to milk that hand even if they don't have the nut. I am more worried about the caller slow playing me, but most likely has a big heart.


Only a made flush is going to raise you on the turn unless you are facing tricky or gambler type players.

Keep in mind that I'm a little rusty (no live play in three months), but here goes.


On the turn, I think it's close between options B and E.


Option B follows the general principle of betting a hand with no outs, but checking a hand with outs. HPfAP illustrates this play with an example somewhat similar to the play scenario you give ... they discuss your correct turn play when you turn two pair, but the turn is also the third suited card on board. (I'm at work, don't have copy handy for page reference.)


Option E seems a bit more "natural." You didn't get much resistance on the flop, and you don't want to give a singleton heart/straight card a cheap draw. Betting certainly keeps the momentum going ... you'll find out soon enough if your hand isn't good. In light of the fact that my hand might be good a fair percentage of the time, I don't view getting raised as a huge calamity, as you likely still have outs to a tight. A check-raise from SB will worry me more than a raise from EP, however.


On balance, I think in this case I lean ever so slightly toawards option E, although I see the merit of option B in this instance. In practice, I might make play B 40% of the time, and play E 60% of the time.


On the river, if the hand got checked through, I call if SB bets out, and bet if checked to.


If, as you say, the hand ends up heads up between me and EP (i.e., betting took place), my thoughts are:


If I checked and called the turn, I check and call again. If I bet and was called, I think I have a value bet, so I will bet again. If I bet and got raised, randomly check/call and check/fold at the appropriate game theoretic frequency.


Interesting post though,


Dave

id probably bet all the way thru except maybe check/call the river depending on the read i get from the guy.


b

Bet the turn as I put the other 2 most likely on 4 flushes consisting of a big heart. If I am raised I call, in fear of the flush or a set. If I am not raised and no flush card, 7 or 3 hits, I bet. If I was raised on the turn, I check and call one bet. If it is bet and then raised after my check, I assume someone has my 2 pair beat and fold.


Tim

>Playing in a low limit game. You are new to the

>table so you have no read on your opponents.

>Most pots you have seen are 3-6 handed usually

>for one bet.


>1 player limps in early position (EP), another

>middle and another late. The SB completes and

>you check in the BB with 7d3d.


>The flop is: 7h 3h 5h


>The SB bets, you raise and the EP player cold

>calls. SB calls.


>Turn board is 7h 3h 5h Jc


>SB checks. Do you:


>E. Bet with the intention of calling if raised


I choose E.


>Assume you see the river and it is a non-

>straight card that is not a heart, 7 or 3. You

>are now heads up with EP. What is your river

>action?


If I bet the turn and someone just calls I am likely to check-call the river. I'd rather find out cheaply whether I'm against a slowplayer.

>Option B follows the general principle of

>betting a hand with no outs, but checking a hand

>with outs. HPfAP illustrates this play with an

>example somewhat similar to the play scenario

>you give ... they discuss your correct turn play

>when you turn two pair, but the turn is also the

>third suited card on board. (I'm at work, don't

>have copy handy for page reference.)


It's a different situation. In KJS's situation, if someone already has you beat and you are 'checking a hand with outs' then you were beaten on the flop. This is always unlikely. You can afford to let them surprise you with a raise on the turn once in a (long) while. I think the HPFAP play applies better when someone spikes on the turn.

I would probably go with E. I'd also probably bet the river.


What shocks me is people folding. I would NEVER fold in this situation. Not in a low limit game that is by every indication loose and passive.


Remember, you are the "new guy" at the table. Your opponents don't expect you to be any tighter than any other fish. They could (and maybe should) be betting with top pair. Two pair as a value bet is very solid in this kind of game.


You can't be afraid of shadows. There is always some horrific situation out there waiting to get you.


I think you have to play the hand aggresively.

>What shocks me is people folding. I would NEVER

>fold in this situation. Not in a low limit game

>that is by every indication loose and passive.


I wrote check-call the river, not fold.

First of all, I also think you should check call the river. As for the turn, think about what you said, the game is loose, sure but "passive" too. Do you see your passive opponents raising into your possible flush when they don't have at least a flsuh themselves. I don't. Not after I've already shown strength on the flop and not been popped back. While it is very likely you are on top in this hand, it is also VERY likely that even if you're the dog, your opponent will not raise you anyway. Thus, IMHO, I think any raise on the turn means that there is more than a good chance you are beat.

I would say E. In a fairly passive low limit game, this board could easily get checked around, and I wouldn’t want to give everyone a free card to draw out on me.


There may be a made flush out there that slow played the flop, but chances are everyone is on a draw. 22% of the time a heart will fall on the river, and you will lose. Some percent of the time you will lose to a set or straight, but chances are you will win this pot more than 50% of time.


I would not fold to a raise. Even if I am against a made flush, there should be 8-9 BB in the pot at that point, which is not enough to justify calling with 4 outs, but I think the implied odds make this call ok. I don’t like betting and folding the turn for a single raise. It encourages people to start taking shots at you.


I would check and call the river, unless I was raised on the turn. Then I might check and fold the river, depending on the player.

I'll throw my 2 bits out.


Turn. I bet here for sure. Same reason as everyone else. I think you're ahead and you don't want to give the A or K of hearts a free card (They're going to call anyway). I will call one raise here, but if EP raises and SB 3-bets I bail.


On the river.

1) If there was no raise on the turn I bet out unless a heart falls.

2) If I was raised on the turn I check-call. I'm not folding this hand. I can see someone on TT or 99 even AJ.

I agree with this. I bet and call a raise, but fold to a 3-bet. If raised I chk-call river. If just called on the turn I bet the river.


I think you call the turn raise as the overcard chaser will raise when their card hits if they have a big heart. Heck, I could see myself in EPs position calling the flop and raising the turn with Ah-Jx here, am I a fish? I doubt I would call the flop with Kh-Jx or Qh-Jx, but I see other people do it all the time.


May you play your best,

Treefrog

(If you'll use slightly more descriptive subjects, it'll make it easier to refer to this thread elsewhere. Thanks)


I'd bet the turn - I don't want to give singleton hearts (or gutshots) a free card. If I get check-raised by BB, I might three-bet. If EP calls three or re-raises, I assume I'm behind, with four outs, and play accordingly.


My plan with the three-bet on the turn against the BB's check-raise is essentially the free-river-card play taken to another level. If he four-bets, you're back to "I'm behind and have four outs, now what?"


I can't solve your river problem without knowing how the turn went. And it's instructive that you simply said, "So, presume you see the river with the EP. Now what?" If you'd just read Tommy's book [1], then you'd know that whole betting sequences can go like a carefully choreographed pas de deux, and you can't know your steps unless you know which dance you're doing.


Regards, Lee


[1] If he'd just write it.

Lee,


I do not understand why you recommend 3 betting if you are check-raised in this situation to get a free show down on the river.


You have a lot more experience than I do, but my experience in low limit is that unless the raiser/check-raiser is a hyper-aggressive/maniac he has got a hand that beats mine. Chances are he has a better hand and I have to spike one of my 4 outs on the river.


My reasons for not 3 betting: 1) I might get 4 bet, 2) I might 3 bet, miss and still not get a free showdown, 3) if I miss on the river, I could fold and save a bet depending on my judgment of the player(s) 4) If I make my 4 outer on the river, I am less likely to get multiple bets out of any opponents left because of the 3 bet on the turn.

Well, of course, you have to gauge your opponent - either via specific knowledge or general experience. But it's dangerous to give up two pair in a heads-up pot like that.


If you're very sure you're beaten, then you simply ask if you have the right price (including future bets) to draw (you need about 11:1). But there are an awful lot of drawing hands that could be putting a play on you, and you've got a big hand - at least some of the time, I think it's worth getting aggressive and putting in a third bet.


Regards, Lee

EP is much more likely to have an over-pair or a stiff draw than he is to have a flush or set. I'd bet figuring to fold to a raise.


So I bet, EP called, and SB folded. I'd bet for value for sure heads-up.


- Louie

To recap:


1 player limps in early position (EP), another middle and another late. The SB completes and you check in the BB with 7d3d.


The flop is: 7h 3h 5h


The SB bets, you raise and the EP player cold calls. SB calls.


Turn board is 7h 3h 5h Jc


SB checks.


What I did was:


E. Bet with the intention of calling if raised


And the EP player did raise. The SB folded and I called.


In the actual hand the final board was:


7h 3h 5h Jc 5d which made my hand much worse. I did not mention this in the original thread because I thought it would not get to the heart of what I was interested in addressing, namely betting a flopped top and botton two pair when the board is all one suit.


I checked and called the river, mostly for information on this player. I thought there was little chance I was ahead since I could no longer beat a J, overpair or 7 better kicker (Ah7c seemed like a reasonable turn raise).


The button showed Kd9d for flopped K High Flush.


KJS

Yay, I got my read right. Sorry if I sound too proud over this one simple hand. This is the first time I've posted a response like this on the board since I felt my experience had not been enough for me to give advice in the past. My suggested play might be debateable, but I think I got it down pretty well. Anyway, you'll probably start to see me around here a little more. This lurker will lurk no more. For better or for worse.